Overflight Rights

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dgger
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by dgger »

Dear Wolfgangs,

Thanks for all your valuable input and apologies for going dark on you. Busy times. In any case, I guess that settles my question and it is indeed the territorial airspace that is relevant for claiming overflight authority.

I agree with both of you that most administrative processes are not appropriate for most GA flights. I remember how Cuba wanted me to implement an API for submitting APIS information for a single flight (further complicated by the website being down for weeks and nobody answering emails or phones). Mexico features opening hours for administrative fax lines and Austria, where I am flying to right now, requires notification via AFTN prior to issueing an approval to enter a restricted area being active today.

Most processes I came across seem to have been designed with the airlines in mind. I wonder, how most pilots deal with it. Have you ever used an agent to take the paperwork of your chests e.g. to acquire overflight or landing rights?
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robert63
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by robert63 »

dgger wrote:). Mexico features opening hours for administrative fax lines and Austria, where I am flying to right now, requires notification via AFTN prior to issueing an approval to enter a restricted area being active today.
The restricted area in Austria is a very unique occasion due to a meeting of the OSCE Ministerial Council and just for 2 days. I don‘t remember anything similar in the last 10 years.
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dgger
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by dgger »

robert63 wrote: The restricted area in Austria is a very unique occasion due to a meeting of the OSCE Ministerial Council and just for 2 days. I don‘t remember anything similar in the last 10 years.
Yes, I realize that and I have absolutely no problem with the existience of the restricted area. My point was that most administrative processess are tailored to operators and are sometimes hard to follow for GA.

In this particular case everyone involved, both civilian and military, was very helpful and supportive, but, honestly, how many of us do have AFTN access?
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by linzhiming »

dgger wrote:
robert63 wrote: The restricted area in Austria is a very unique occasion due to a meeting of the OSCE Ministerial Council and just for 2 days. I don‘t remember anything similar in the last 10 years.
Yes, I realize that and I have absolutely no problem with the existience of the restricted area. My point was that most administrative processess are tailored to operators and are sometimes hard to follow for GA.

In this particular case everyone involved, both civilian and military, was very helpful and supportive, but, honestly, how many of us do have AFTN access?
If you need direct AFTN access, you can get that easily from https://ts3.flightplanningonline.co.uk/. I have used that on several occasions to contact ATC centres directly regarding questions I had, e.g. overflight rights, airway questions, IFR in uncontrolled airspace etc, and usually get a response relatively quickly.

Wolfgang
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linzhiming
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by linzhiming »

dgger wrote:Most processes I came across seem to have been designed with the airlines in mind. I wonder, how most pilots deal with it. Have you ever used an agent to take the paperwork of your chests e.g. to acquire overflight or landing rights?
I normally try to avoid agents as much as possible if I can deal with the paperwork for permits myself, however in cases where I used one (or where it is compulsory because you need a locally-registered agent), I have had good experience with White Rose Aviation: http://www.whiteroseaviation.co.uk/

FSB have come out with a permit book (http://shop.fsbureau.org/online/thepermitbook). I have not purchased it as I have not needed it so far but the sample pages seem to suggest that it could be quite useful.

This FSB permit map is also quite useful: http://www.fsbureau.org/permitmap

Wolfgang
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dgger
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by dgger »

linzhiming wrote: If you need direct AFTN access, you can get that easily from https://ts3.flightplanningonline.co.uk/. I have used that on several occasions to contact ATC centres directly regarding questions I had, e.g. overflight rights, airway questions, IFR in uncontrolled airspace etc, and usually get a response relatively quickly.
Yes, though they require UK residency, unfortunately. A workaround (at least for FPL addressing) is the always awesome (for IFR in Europe) and free https://autorouter.aero or https://www.eurofpl.eu/

The latter would allow you to add AFTN addresses when filing per default. Autorouter you need to contact their support to activate that feature.

Thanks for the pointers to FSB and Whiterose. I will dive right in.
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by linzhiming »

dgger wrote: Yes, though they require UK residency, unfortunately. A workaround (at least for FPL addressing) is the always awesome (for IFR in Europe) and free https://autorouter.aero or https://www.eurofpl.eu/
Are you sure about that? The sign-up form allows you to specify a non-UK address. This is supposed to be the “official” way to submit FPLs in the UK as there is no German DFS AIS-style or French Olivia-style service available. If needed, can’t you say you are planning to perform a flight into the UK?

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dgger
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by dgger »

linzhiming wrote: Are you sure about that? The sign-up form allows you to specify a non-UK address.
Affirm. I did try to sign up and had my application rejected.
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by RMarkSampson »

Really good discussion from the General Aviation side of things. Essentially this thread is discussing "Freedom of Navigation" which applies to a country's landmass, its territorial seas (TS) and the airspace above it. It has been an issue with ships at sea for decades, and when aircraft became capable of transiting bodies of water, it has been an issue for pilots too. In my previous life I dealt with "excessive claim" issues from the US military side of things - for both ships and aircraft. We call them FONOPs when US military ships or aircraft contest an excessive claim.

There is certainly a legal basis for how you can transit international waters - but also beware that there is a real threat of unintended consequence if you inadvertently violate or challenge some countries myopic view of "their world." Overflight over a countries landmass and TS is governed by each country. They set the rules and you must abide by and it certainly is not "one size fits all." Most countries abide by the same guidelines as worked out through the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). The ICAO is a UN specialized agency with 192 Member States and industry groups to reach consensus on international civil aviation Standards and Recommended Practices. So when you discuss specific countries and overflight, you not only need to know if they are a member of the ICAO but you also need to know if they abide by ICAO guidelines.

Aviation safety certainly benefit from Flight Information Regions (FIR's) - but those boundaries out into international water/airspace can be contested. National claims can overlap, creating areas of disputed ownership and jurisdiction that can lead to confrontation and even open conflict. Additionally, many countries try and dictate sovereignty within their FIR boundaries. US military aircraft are frequently challenged when flying in international airspace but within a FIR. It mostly is a war of words - i.e. what is said over the radio - but I would be certainly be more hesitant to wage that war from a lone GA aircraft.

So I would just summarize that each situation is different and I would not apply something from one place in the world and think it applies to everywhere in the world. Also in your flight planning, the what-if emergency may create something totally unintended - remember in 2001 that US Navy EP-3 and the Chinese fighter that collided - and the P-3 landed in China? It took 11 days to get back the 24-person crew, and the plane came back disassembled in pieces.

While my experience is military - I would recommend civil aircraft pilots ask some direct questions to their insurance underwriters. Each policy has territorial limits. My policy says "no Cuba" - so you might want to weigh the risk of transiting Cuba's FIR especially if your best emergency divert field is... ah, Cuba.
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Re: Overflight Rights

Post by dgger »

Mark,

thanks so much for your insight - all very useful and helpful information. Things are finally starting to make sense to me.

As you have guessed, I am not looking to challenge authorities - quite the contrary: I am looking from a traveller’s point of view. My goal is to avoid conflict and confrontation. That said, I still find it difficult to procure reliable information on what kind of regulations are being imposed on which region by which state. The AIPs, if at all available, tend to either not mention overflights or are not particularily specific with regards to the boundaries of the airspace claimed - neither are Jeppesen manuals. Perhaps, it is time for me to accept that this is the territory of locally connected agents, who make a living of procuring such knowledge, but in return have me covered regarding run-ins with authorities.

And yes, personal considerations are quite relevant for planning purposes. My policy takes no issue with me going to Cuba and I ended up taking my family to Santiago. While Cubans appear to apply the same set of regulations to both arriving UFO and GA aircraft, everyone involved was friendly and courteous. But I can see, how this experience might be different for you.

Thanks again for your help!
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