DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

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fqb

DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by fqb »

Quick introduction. I am currently getting my PPL, a few days away from completion. My main reason for flying is for business, to reach our customers in the rockies and to commute between business locations. Especially the latter regularly means bringing my wife (not flying, she is also my business partner) and two kids (2 and 7) and our dog (70lbs) along. Typical routes would be CO-WA-CA-AZ-CO.

I am training in a DA-20, although I recently had to switch to an Archer for reasons not important at this point. Love the Diamond. I plan to go to at least 150hrs of experience and IFR before taking any passengers, and plan to do this in my local club planes, which is easy and affordable (172/182/182retractable).

The DA42 and SR22T seem to make sense here, although both would be at MTOW and space limit as I understand. I played with W&B a bit, which instantly ruled out the DA40 (besides that I want TKS on board). The EA 400 would of course be a dream plane and I have watched it over the years (I grew up not far from where it was developed) but a somewhat unsupported plane in the U.S. worries me. I have though read the threads on the EA-400 from Antoine on this board - sounds awesome.


I read nearly all I can find online about these planes. I flew in an SR-22T with my wife and friends before starting PPL. I have not been in a Diamond besides the DA-20 trainer. I read on this board and the Cirrus board to get more info before posting. While I understand, and this applies to myself too, that there are as many rational factors in airplane choice as there are emotional, I would like to make a list of pros and cons below and get input on whether I see something wrong here and if I am missing something, and augment this with some first hand experience.

Ultimately, safety is the most important goal. I think I can be a good pilot but every day is different and when you fly your family, you have to start with the best odds in my opinion.

Typical mission would be KSBS (Steamboat, CO)-Seattle with stopover/fuel in Ontario, OR.

DA42

plus:
-awesome handling characteristics through low wing loading and good design
-low fatality rate (is the 0.54/100000 the most accurate / recent number we have from the AVweb article?)
-two diesel engines. I drive a few diesel Mercedes cars and believe in this thing.
-center stick and great to hand fly
-nearly all FIKI
-front baggage compartment

minus:
-cabin less comfortable for passengers, although maybe quieter?
-higher acquisition and operating costs
-no parachute, therefore no “no-skill way out” if things go wrong or if I, as a pilot, have an inflight emergency
-low wing loading probably means a rougher flight, which is an issue for family
-at MTOW for typ. mission
-does not fit $150k hangar at KSBS, next one up is $700k so we would have to rent instead

Cirrus

plus:
-very comfortable cabin
-side stick for non flying copilot
-high wing loading cuts more smoothly through turbulence
-great value to purchase and maintain, more integrated avionics at somewhat comparable price points
-slightly faster
-parachute
-low fatality rate of 0.71 / last 36mo, potentially lower if always mentally ready to pull chute
-fits a $150k hangar at my home base KSBS.

minus:
-not very forgiving in flight. This is probably my biggest worry.
-at MTOW for typ. mission
-side stick
-not that great to hand fly



Models:
I think for my use the following models are to be compared somewhat:

The Diamond DA42 centurion and SR22 non turbo have not enough power for mountain flying at MTOW I think. Although I heard there is a stronger version of the 2.0 out now? Also Centurion DA42 seems somewhat out for mountain flying due to engine restart only below 8000/6000 feet. At my home base, thats pattern altitude / below airport. Read that in the ebook, maybe I misunderstood.

Converted DA42 NG KAP 140 FIKI - compare to G3 SR22TN Avidyne TKS. Neither have fully integrated Avionics.

True DA42NG FIKI - I am comparing this one to SR22TN/T Perspective TKS/FIKI 2008-2010.

DA42 VI = SR22T G5 - both have increased MTOW. Both are probably outside my price range.



Now I am aware I can solve my weight and space issues with a P-Baron, a Cessna 340, or a P210 (Silver Eagle). But with all of those we go back to 50 year old airframes. I would at least need a new panel, but in either case would have much less good safety records, and in case of the twins, very high skill level required to e-land with engine failure. DA62 is outside my price range, and EA-400 I have the reservations outlined above, but happy to hear otherwise on any of the alternate choices.

Florian
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by carym »

These are all hard choices. Unless money is no object, every choice is a compromise. Be aware, getting insurance on any twin can be an issue until you have significant hours, so I would suggest asking an insurance agent what the requirements would be for a DA42 and at what cost.

My plane has the 1.7 engines and I have flown over the Rockies multiple times at 16,000 feet with full fuel and passenger (so near MTOW). This is not an issue for the DA42. If you lose an engine in any piston twin you will be in trouble in the Rockies, don't fool yourself. If you lose an engine in a single (SR22) you will be in bigger trouble, even with the CAPS.

My last comment relates to the use you are expecting to put your airplane. Flying for business puts a lot of extra pressure on making a trip within time requirements. GA airplanes are wonderful to get around, but you really have to be prepared to say no for weather issues. I have TKS but anything more than light ice is a risk that I will not take. I have been caught in moderate ice and that was not pleasant. I am not a high time pilot with only 2100 hours, but I do not fly for business unless I can assure myself that I have a minimum of 1 day grace on either side of where I need to be for weather issues. On my last trip to Seattle it required 4 extra days to get back home due to weather and maintenance issues.

I know I didn't answer all (or even many) of your questions, but I am sure you will get other helpful responses.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Rich »

A couple of thoughts:

- If you'd be at MTOW today, consider that your children will grow ... heavier. (And sadly, likely you will, too :D )

- It looks like you're typical mission doesn't take you over the highest part of the Continental Divide, though there are some chunks of nearly-as-high terrain to deal with.

- Between California and Washington lies the Siskiyou range. This is routinely a heavy icing area.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Chris »

I would also be wary about purchasing an aircraft that just barely fits your mission today. Kids have a way of getting bigger over time. I haven't spent any time in a SR22 back seat, but just thinking about squeezing two adults, two kids, and a 70 lbs dog into a DA42 makes me claustrophobic. Too bad there aren't any used DA62s out there yet.

Other things to consider are availability of service centers at/near your home base and the customer support reputation of each company.

If I were making that decision, I'd probably choose the FIKI DA42 and put the dog on a diet, but then I'd probably convince myself to hold out a bit longer and get the -VI version.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by CFIDave »

Given the mountainous and rugged terrain routes you've described, I'd much rather have a twin than the "plane with the parachute."

If you can swing it, an Austro-powered DA42NG or -VI is going to perform better at the higher altitudes, with minimal "drift-down" if you were to lose an engine over the mountains. (Austro engines don't fail anyway. :) ) You won't have much trouble fitting your family in for awhile (until your kids grow). Maybe by the time you need the extra space and carrying capacity you'll be able to afford a good used DA62.

A bigger issue might be the use of O2. Is your family willing to fly with "rubber hose up your nose" cannulas to allow you to fly direct over mountains above 12,500 feet instead of flying lower via mountain passes? If not, you might want to consider a good used 6-seater Piper Mirage with pressurized cabin and FIKI. I'd also feel better flying behind a Lycoming TIO-540 of the Piper vs. the Continental of the SR22T.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Antoine »

Hi Florian, I am taking a contrarian stance here.

In french we have a saying: "private flying is fast transportation for people who are not in a hurry".

With all due respect, I encourage you to better take into consideration a critical issue: lack of experience.
You will be flying in a hostile environment, with your family on board AND for business, therefore with maximum "get-there-itis" pressure. Sure way to get yourself (and all on board) into major trouble...

Whenever things go wrong, having your family and especially kids on board is a cause of massive stress and interference that can overwhelm and seriously handicap a pilot. Ask me how I know...

If I were you I would explore the following options:
Go for a Malibu (did I just recommend the competition here ?!?) as Dave suggested and hire a safety pilot for the first few hundred hours. Payload is high enough for an extra soul on board and you will be safe. Expect huge maintenance bills though...
or
Get a DA40 (yes, not a 42) pick an early model for 900 lbs+ payload, upgrade MTOW and avionics as needed.
Expect to cancel one out of three flights due to weather hazards and plan accordingly.
Sell and upgrade around the 500 hour mark - The DA40 will have probably saved your life 2-3 times by then. It did this to me and many here. Not all of us noticed though. I think the capital loss on such a DA40 will be very small.

Fly safe and enjoy. Sorry if I ruined the party, but I felt I owed you this post. It's not just about shopping around, unfortunately...
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by carym »

Antoine,
You said what I was trying to say, but as usual much more elegantly.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Tommy »

My thoughts exactly Antoine. Walk before you run Florian. Get a nice glass DA40 and fly it for 500 / 1,000 hrs. before you get into something bigger and better. Learn the ATC system. Travel the country and learn about the weather. You can't rush flying without consequences and the consequences when rushed are usually not very nice. Remember, your family are passengers and have put their lives in your hands. They don't have a clue as to what flying is about. As far as they are concerned, they're getting into a car with wings. They know nothing about wind sheer, ice, microbursts, mountain waves or rotors and neither do you. Don't find out what they are with your family on board.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Antoine »

Cary I re-read the thread after posting and almost went back to add "as Cary said..." as an opening statement.
Thanks to you and Tommy.
As usual, it is just an amazing feeling on this forum.
I hope Florian will explore it.

Back to Florian: I am very glad more of "our" people have chimed in.
Wishing you a successful check ride.
I don't know if this is standard in mountainous regions in the US, but here in Switzerland we get good exposure to mountain flying already at the PPL stage. We learn how to cross a ridge, how to guess where the downdrafts are to be expected, how to predict major turbulence (by our standards), how to enter or not a valley, etc...
The threats Tommy mentioned are painfully real. We lose one or two small planes in the Swiss Alps to (supposed) downdrafts and or unrecoverable wind shear per flying season.

Last year a turbocharged twin went down - in VMC mind you - and the year before a Saratoga from my club with 6 on board. And an instructor-flown Robin blown into a dynamic stall by a valley wind, right in the pattern of his home base in Sion...

I like Tommy's illustration of how passengers entrust us with their lives: "they're getting in a car with wings". We have huge responsibility in our hands.
Now imagine how hard it will be to say "no go, I don't like the weather" to people in a hurry... They will think you're a chicken, especially if someone else is taking off at the same time. It is psychologically very tough on the PIC to 1. decide and then 2. say: "let's look for a hotel".

I see you did not fly a DA40 yet.
Try it. Ask an instructor to let you "play" with it (lazy eights and similar gentleman's aerobatics). Have him take you into the stall domain and stay there for a while.
You'll probably end this debate yourself.
It is such a nice plane you will fall in love ... and grow composite wings.
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Re: DA42 as a true four (and a half) seater?

Post by Erik »

Antoine I agree completely with what you said - only I was a little surprised to see you recommend a Mirage (a great plane) vs an ... Extra 400 which fills the same mission space. (Plus a safety pilot - most important part).

A DA40 is surely more safe for a new pilot and family than a DA42 in the hands of a new pilot with a heavy dose of get-there-itis.

Love your french saying. I have heard the same thing around here, "If you want to get there late, then fly". Or "A safe pilot is a flakey pilot" (Meaning you are willing to cancel, or be late if weather etc dictate).

I am convinced I fly because I love it because of flying for its own sake. And it "saves me time" wherever I go, but not really if I factor in the maintenance (time to oversee delivering it to shops), training (which for me is fun so it is not a time cost but if you are flying mostly to save time, then this should be considered lost time), not to mention the times you...need to be late. All in, I am sure flying commercial saves time.

The way to really save time in GA is to be filthy rich, and hire people to fly your plane, prep your plane, manage the maintenance, etc. So you just show up in your Black gas guzzling SUV and walk up the stair ramp into your at least pressurized twin turbine (or turbofan) which has the reliability and strength to really be an all weather machine, and the pro pilot and pro copilot to match that mission.
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