DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Any DA50 related topics.

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CFIDave
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by CFIDave »

You can read all about the DA50's performance by reading Diamond's Aircraft Flight Manual:
http://support.diamond-air.at/da62_afm_ ... 73ab0.html

The DA50's max gross weight limit of 1999 kg (same as a DA42-VI and some European 5-seat DA62s) was chosen to avoid European ATC fees.

The DA50 has slotted flaps to help meet the FAA's (and I'm guessing EASA's) Part 23 certification rule that single-engine piston planes need a dirty stall speed of 61 KIAS or less. The DA62 as a twin doesn't need to meet this standard.

I agree that the DA62 air conditioning (just like the DA40NG and DA42-VI) is marginal for North American summer heat and humidity. JetShades help somewhat.
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by MackAttack »

That 1200 TBR is not uncommon for a new engine; the Austros had it as well memory serves. As data comes in, the time lengthens and can (if the engine permits an overhaul) be revised to a TBO. The Rotax 915iS, another new engine, is a 1200 TBR engine as well. In fact, at OSH, I talked to a Sling TSi operator who just sent his engine in for evaluation at 1200 hours ... so it is a thing but one that's likely to change well before most operators get to 1200 hours on the engine.

Agree with your other points but we will see how the orders turn out given those specs and pricing...
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by Ed McDonald »

Here is a AvWeb interview with Scott McFadzean describing the DA50 and the marketing experiment of essentially a single-engine DA62 vs the twin-engine version.
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by MackAttack »

I saw that last night and it helped me understand their pricing strategy. Close to (but less than) the 62's speed, less range, good useful load, one fewer engine, and marketed at pilots who don't want to go through the process to get their multi. "Don't want the hassle of getting the multi? We've got basically the same plane right here, saves you 100k..." That's the sales pitch.

Of course, those same pilots will also consider a new Cirrus SR22 for 900k+, or even a Piper M350 for the same price as a 62, if pressurization is important to them. So it will still be interesting to see how this shakes out in the marketplace.
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by TNAviator »

Hello all, I was with MackAttack at the Diamond booth. My quick take: LOVE the DA62, but not in the current budget. :(. The DA42 is a better fit for me, as it has a lower price point, and you’re not sacrificing much performance wise. But the cabin interior in the 42 looked much more utilitarian vs the DA62 luxurious interior. The price delta reflects that. As to the DA50, it’s a great looking aircraft, but not something I would consider before the DA42 or the DA62.
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by MackAttack »

Greg, you sly dog - you joined DAN! Welcome aboard! We had a lot of fun at OSH for sure!

Notice to everyone else on DAN: there goes the neighborhood!! haha ... j/k. Another good egg on the forum!

Cheers!
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by yl472401 »

Ed McDonald wrote:Here is a AvWeb interview with Scott McFadzean describing the DA50 and the marketing experiment of essentially a single-engine DA62 vs the twin-engine version.
Thanks for the video shared. I now is in a soft passing mood. More leaning towards SR22


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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by Davestation »

Both the Austro and Thielert engines started at 1000hrs, so this is not surprising.

I certainly hope that the routine mx of the big single is significantly less than the small twin, at least.

There’s surely a demographic that has avoided the 42 and 62 because they are twins. The 50 seems to more directly compete with Cirrus in that regard.
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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by yl472401 »

Davestation wrote:Both the Austro and Thielert engines started at 1000hrs, so this is not surprising.

I certainly hope that the routine mx of the big single is significantly less than the small twin, at least.

There’s surely a demographic that has avoided the 42 and 62 because they are twins. The 50 seems to more directly compete with Cirrus in that regard.
Well, then DA50 might find it very hard competing with SR22 for it has smaller fuel tank, less cruising speed, non-Shute. It does have advantage of having a slower Vx Vy and Vs0 and central control stick. Cirrus has shorter length 26 ft compare to Da50RG (30 ft ). I future the longevity helps the diamond aircraft to have a relatively stable aerodynamic property.
Not to mention it has a much bigger price tag 1.35 mm compared with 1m with all the equipments.
I sit in both the DA50 and SR22. I felt less head room in SR22 and the better field of view sitting in a da50.


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Re: DA50 same price as DA62 - How's this make sense?

Post by lgrennlee »

I was astonished by the price tag for the DA50. I cannot for the life of me understand what Diamond is thinking. After reading the AFM, most notably the performance tables, it is baffling. A few things stand out which collectively make me wonder what the conop is behind the DA50? Who are the customers? I have to think that targeting your existing DA40 customer base for an "upgrade" would be a path. New non-diamond pilots?

Certainly those looking to upgrade out of the DA40 after getting enough hours to feel comfortable will at least give the Cirrus a quick look. Here are some points of comparison:

It appears that the SR22 at 12,000 feet, is more economical than the DA50. For comparison the DA50 at 11.3 GPH or roughly 67.5% power the plane makes 158 KTAS. The Cirrus at the same altitude and for the same fuel burn makes 166 knots at 55% power. Also take into consideration that the energy density of JetA is higher than AVGas by about 4%. The Cirrus outperforms and is more efficient than the DA50 despite the retractable landing gear. The DA62 is just a little bit worse at 11.8 GPH for 159 Knots. This very modest hit of course gets you another engine and 86.4 gallons of fuel.

While not a failure of the aircraft - the recommended landing/approach speeds are much closer to banked stall speeds than in a Cirrus. This is a little troubling. Exceeding a 45 degree bank while holding the recommended approach speed of 77 knots at max gross in the AFM could result in a stall spin stall (stall is 76 knots at 45 degrees). Obviously as pilots we can make our own judgement calls but I wonder why they would recommend such a tight margin. For example, the SR22 would stall in a bank around 60 degrees (85 knots) in a landing configuration at max gross using the recommended approach speed range of 80-85 knots. Add in throwing in the gear in a turn and we have a recipe for disaster.

Then the fuel tanks... 49 gallons usable. Revisiting that optimal cruise altitude of 12k, the taxi/climb requires 5.4 gallons of fuel for usable cruise of 43.6 gallons or about 3.85 hours of fuel at 11.3 GPH. With the reserve to alternate, we have only 3.10 hours of flight time available or 489 miles @ 158 KTAS to the alternate. No descent or approach fuel burn included. That's not a lot of utility there. Go faster and that margin is chopped substantially. Also the tanks rely on a transfer pump which can be left on and auto transfer but if forgotten the transfer rate is "only" 60G/hr. It's possible that one might not be able to put all of the fuel in the main tank before it runs dry if they forget. Also the pump could fail creating a fuel emergency very quickly.

The power plant is unproven. I'm nearly always supportive of "new is better" but they have not done a great job in the past so I'd be really cautious about this. Which leads into engine out landing speeds... best glide of 94 knots (10:1 glide ratio is good) and a full flaps engine out speed of 77 knots. I'm not sure I want to be landing engine out at 77 knots in a small plane. The real life value for this might be lower of course.

Another curiosity is that the AFM states "CAUTION INTENTIONAL NEGATIVE G-MANEUVERS ARE NOT PERMITTED" in several places. Odd.

Along those lines... and this is potentially important for a high performance aircraft. The Cirrus Vno is 176 KIAS, The DA40 is 152 KIAS. That is a pretty low value when I'm sure the plane is quite slippery. It will prevent "high performance" descents when it is bumpy out. It may also limit top speed when a bit lower to the ground.

Dimensionally, the 44ft wingspan makes life harder for people and T hangars. Maybe this is a plane that require "concierge service" but I tend to think those people are going want a little more utility for the dollar if they are also paying a good deal a month for the hangar.

After running a W/B calculation the DA50 has the same issue as the DA40. If you have a small family as I do with light parents in front and small kids and bags in the back, the CG is too far aft. It seems to be designed to have two heavy people in the two front seats to keep the CG forward. With full tanks and a modest load well below gross we're at the very aft end of the Moment envelope.

I can only hope they find somewhere to put another 20 gallons of fuel.

All in all, a disappointing effort. I had hope this plane would provide a much needed evolution towards a more capable single engine JetA GA aircraft and potentially provide a path out of the DA40. Unfortunately it seems to fall short.

Logan

Here are the sources used to make the comparisons.

DA50 AFM
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin ... mplete.pdf

Cirrus SR22 AFM
https://inflightpilottraining.com/wp-co ... 22-POH.pdf

DA62 AFM
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin ... mplete.pdf
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