First flight of the retractable DA50

Any DA50 related topics.

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MackAttack
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by MackAttack »

This plane with its small fuel tanks, limited range and relatively low speed will have a tough time competing in the US market vs. the SR22 models, in my opinion. Elsewhere in the world, particularly Europe, an aircraft with a jet fuel engine that can fly 4 adults for 3 hours plus reserves would work just fine and I think that's where they will sell most of them. Cirrus could put a CD300 on an SR22 and have a slower plane with better range and that may be something they consider depending on how reliable this engine turns out to be. But you would be giving up 20 knots in all likelihood - basically getting SR20 cruise speed at SR22 prices. Where 100LL is easily available like North America, that's a tough sell. And that doesn't even factor in the chute. I like the look of it, however. Will be interesting to watch!
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by Soareyes »

In my imagination there was a strategic planning session at Diamond where they looked at the North American market and made a reasonable decision that it wasn't worth trying to out-Cirrus Cirrus. While there are some small things that Cirrus could improve there is not much more that you can do in terms of speed, range and cabin experience in a piston single that Cirrus hasn't already done and they constantly look for little things to add to the package every year. It would be exhausting and expensive to try to keep ahead of Cirrus. Not that I wish someone wouldn't try but at best they would just split the market.

In that imaginary meeting Diamond decided their answer for the North American market was the DA62; Big and wide cabin for big and wide pilots to go long distances in our big and wide continent. Offer things Cirrus doesn't, diesel engines of course and two of them for the small segment of the market that prefers twins.

In my imagination Diamond will have another meeting where they decide to offer Autoland on every airplane like Cirrus does a parachute. An Autoland button on the panel would be a major attraction to every passenger who ever worried that their life depended on the pilot (that would be all of them). An Autoland button in a Diamond diesel twin would out-Cirrus Cirrus because it addresses worries about the future of avgas, flying distance over water and in the event of pilot incapacitation, is better than a parachute.

No doubt they will sell a few DA50s in North America but the rest of the world is the real market. A CD-300 in a Cirrus would be a Cirrus for the world.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by CFIDave »

While Diamond had an experimental program a few years ago that demonstrated a working autoland system for a DA42, it appeared to be just a "proof of concept" that was an evolutionary dead end.

The reality is that autoland in general aviation is likely to be driven by Garmin, which has already introduced the capability into the Piper M600, Cirrus Vision Jet, and TBM 940. These are all G3000 aircraft, but share many of the LRUs and software with the G1000. Garmin has already hinted that autoland could be added to the G1000, and there have been multiple reports that Cirrus is currently working on adding autoland to its Perspective Plus version of the G1000 NXi. With FADEC-controlled engines in most of its aircraft, the development of Garmin autoland might be easier for Diamond, although having two engines to control in a twin certainly complicates things.

So does the DA50 need a 'chute if it eventually gets autoland? The single engine Cirrus Jet now has both for different situations:
1. The parachute for engine failure (pilots think mostly about this).
2. Autoland for pilot incapacitation (passengers think mostly about this).

Pilot incapacitation is the primary concern behind the parachute as the "Wife Acceptance Factor" (WAF) that helps sell Cirrus aircraft. But autoland is a much better solution for pilot incapacitation that doesn't wreck the plane, doesn't put it down in treetops or water, or doesn't work at pattern altitudes. A friend of mine recently traded in his 2 year old Piper M600 for a new one with autoland to address his wife's concern about pilot incapacitation (the M600 has no 'chute).

Once autoland has been implemented, it doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to expect full takeoff-to-landing autonomous flight, where the pilot is "along for the ride" as mostly a programmer/monitor of the avionics. In many ways autonomous flight is a much easier problem to solve compared to autonomous full self-driving automobiles that need to react more quickly to a much wider range of environmental factors and threats. ("Full self-driving" on my Tesla has a long ways to go...).

While I have no special knowledge of Diamond's conversations or plans with Garmin, I think efforts to develop autoland on a DA50 would provide a better long-term return on investment vs. adding a parachute. Such a development could also be applied to Diamond twins where two engines already beat having a parachute for engine failure. If you're worried about flying a lot over inhospitable terrain like mountains or water, get a DA42-VI twin for about the same price as a new DA50.
Last edited by CFIDave on Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by AndrewM »

I think Diamond could out-Cirrus Cirrus. The SRXX is just so unforgiving to pilots becoming distracted or overwhelmed and they slip up on their approach speeds and go into a stall / spin in the pattern / base to final. Or retract the flaps a little too soon at low altitude... and go into a spin. Point is, the fundamental airframe/design is nowhere near as forgiving as what we have.

I have flown a G6 SR22 and the Vision Jet. Both are awesome. But I just cannot get over the fact that every other month there is another Cirrus accident, chute pull or incident. And the bulk of the really ugly accidents are those stall spins due to the unforgiving nature of their fundamental plane base to final. Fly perfectly by the numbers... wonderful planes. Get off your game... lots of action on an approach, last minute change of instructions from approach that distract you... can become deadly. How many of us have gotten a little slow andhad the forgiving nature of the DA40 potentially save our skin?

Cirrus are wonderful at all the incremental stuff they do each generation. However for me, the real big issue is the fundamental airframe design and safety of that plane for the typical GA pilot. I bet there would be plenty of people like me that want more mission capability, and really do not want a twin. So for a step-up single I want (a) a VERY safe and forgiving airframe, (b) FIKI, (c) a chute. Auto-land would seal the deal. I rekon a lot of SRXX drivers would convert to Diamond if the DA50 had a chute, even if it was a little slower.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by TimS »

Why would any Cirrus SRXX owner switch to Diamond DA-50?
It is under ranged, and has insufficient useful load.
Note sure about others, but I am rather heavyset, and even with another broad shouldered co-pilot (enough I had to put weight in cargo for CG) we did not brush shoulders in the SR22. The extra width in the 62 works for having three across, but does not materially help up front.

In summary, Diamond is still largely a unicorn, has yet to turn the corner on reputation on fleet support, lower quantity makes it harder to buy/sell, and offers nothing substantially better than a Cirrus. There is no "wow" I see with the Diamond DA-50.

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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by Tommy »

Your best investment in pilot/passenger safety is pilot proficiency. It is by far, the best and most inexpensive way to maintain safety. This point cannot be argued, only accepted, or, rejected. The choice is yours.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by Colin »

Tommy,

My wife rejects your argument because she is not arguing from a rational place. Emotionally, she worries I will have a stroke and strand her and the family in the sky with no way down to live. We have discussed a parachute, but she's not really interested. We've discussed pinch hitter courses, but she knows herself well enough that she knows she wouldn't be landing the plane, she'd be too upset to do that if something had happened to me.

When I showed her the autoland button video she was *very* interested. Until she saw the price of the plane we needed. Now I think she is just biding her time until the price comes down or the bank accounts rise to meet it.

She cares about how proficient I am, and suggests "you should go flying" if I haven't been up in a while, but there is a very low probability event with catastrophic results that occupies some of her thoughts when we are in the plane.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by gordsh »

Colin wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:21 am Tommy,

My wife rejects your argument because she is not arguing from a rational place. Emotionally, she worries I will have a stroke and strand her and the family in the sky with no way down to live. We have discussed a parachute, but she's not really interested. We've discussed pinch hitter courses, but she knows herself well enough that she knows she wouldn't be landing the plane, she'd be too upset to do that if something had happened to me.

When I showed her the autoland button video she was *very* interested. Until she saw the price of the plane we needed. Now I think she is just biding her time until the price comes down or the bank accounts rise to meet it.

She cares about how proficient I am, and suggests "you should go flying" if I haven't been up in a while, but there is a very low probability event with catastrophic results that occupies some of her thoughts when we are in the plane.
I think your wife had a chat with my wife!! Same story here...
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

Post by ZAV »

My prediction is that the Panthera outsells DA50 in the US.

I’ll be ready for something other than my DA40 in 3-4 yrs. the DA50 as advertised won’t get a look. Better options at those prices are available.

I’ve never cared for a parachute as the pilot but every non-pilot that flies with me states they’d feel safer with one. It’s just the way things are. Even LSAs are getting them now. Diamond needs to stop being stubborn about it and add it.

And I’m fairly certain the DA50 will still not have all the NXi features on board by launch. I have no inside information but history repeats itself.
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Re: First flight of the retractable DA50

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