SureFly Electronic Ignition

Discussions specific to Lycoming engines

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

Some more information I got from Surefly during my conversation concerning spark plugs: They've seen some resets caused by voltage transients in 28-volt aircraft. The fix is installation of a capacitor or filter for the power lead. I haven't done anything about this but it seems worthwhile to add.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Steve
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:23 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N432SC
Airports: 1T7
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Steve »

Rich:

Sounds like a possible cheap fix. You are likely old enough to remember the capacitor across the points in your car distributor ignition...

And, of course, the standard magnetos have a capacitor as well.

Steve
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

Steve wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:34 pm Rich:

Sounds like a possible cheap fix. You are likely old enough to remember the capacitor across the points in your car distributor ignition...

And, of course, the standard magnetos have a capacitor as well.

Steve
I shot them an inquiry for details and will let y'all know.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

I got a lengthy reply from Surefly on the voltage spike problem:

Short answer to the capacitor question is to use a 4,700 micro-Farad cap rated for greater than 50 to 100 Volts. We’ve used much smaller caps with some success as well, but the 4,700 micro-Farad seems to be closest to the mark.

Long answer: As described below, we’ve had a handful of 24V airplanes (mostly Cessnas, a few Bonanzas, and a couple of others) that have exhibited intermittent rough-running issues. Most have been traced to grounding, power, and other issues. We had to visit and test several airplanes (using an oscilloscope) before we found the smoking gun in early July. The cause turned out to be brief over-voltage spikes in excess of 35 Volts which trip our over-voltage protection and cause the SIM to reset. We have since confirmed this behavior on several 24V airplanes that reported intermittent rough-running issues. The root cause of the spikes is unknown in all but a couple of cases. One of these occurs only when an air conditioning blower motor is turned on. On some airplanes, the problem vanishes when electrical load is increase (turning on lights, etc).

Bottom line is that we are now all but 100% sure these otherwise unexplained intermittent issues are due to airplane electrical system over-voltage spikes. A “cure” that works on some airplanes is the capacitive input power filter. We have not tried a snap-on inductive filter. In cases where the capacitive filter has failed, we have used a 24/12V down-converter with 100% success thus far.

Now that we know there are actually quite a few 24V airplanes with large over-voltage spikes, we have designed a new internal power supply with a much higher over-voltage limit that should be able to tolerate these spikes. This will be going for FAA shortly, and we hope to gain approval in the coming weeks to a few months.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
DavidS
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:28 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: DA40
Airports: KHEF
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by DavidS »

A “cure” that works on some airplanes is the capacitive input power filter.
I'm now one of them. After working with them and providing large quantities of g1000 log data, we found that our main voltage had a sawtooth pattern. Apparently a pea under the mattress was enough to cause the issues, and seems as if it may be related to the type of voltage regulator we have.

They provided us with a cap kit, and once we installed all the problems went away. We're still in fixed timing mode, but will wait until next annual before fiddling again. Hopefully they'll have the real fix ready by then.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

Confirmed today my Surefly has a problem, hopefully this will be fixed when we obtain the capacitor kit. My mechanic is now a field reference for SF and is high on it because they are pro-active in addressing this 28-volt system problem.

My symptoms are really interesting. No detectable problems at high or really low power. It gets flaky when MAP is between about 17 and 12 inches. So in takeoff, climb, cruise, all is well. It's during the reduced power descent and flying at reduced power keeping level it's flaky. In a typical descent from downwind through base to final it's fine. I'm typically at 8.5" or below there so no problem. The same with taxiing. And runup is usually at 19-20' do nothing shows up there.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
gsontheimer
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:44 am
First Name: gsontheimer
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N937DS
Airports: EDHL
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by gsontheimer »

This all sound I will have to wait quite some time before I can install my SF magnet in my DA40 - and before that get the SF fixed with whatever the final solution might be.
Gerhard

N937DS: DA40.992 (2008 XLS)
FAA: ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI
EASA: CPL(A)-IR, FI(A), IRI, FE(A), IRE(A)
Cirrus TCI
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

gsontheimer wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:44 am This all sound I will have to wait quite some time before I can install my SF magnet in my DA40 - and before that get the SF fixed with whatever the final solution might be.
It has been frustrating. I think things are great and suddenly they're not. FWIW my mechanic was already aware of the voltage spike problem, having encountered and dealt with it recently on a C-210. They have a revised model already built and tested, waiting on FAA approval.

I am scratching my head about a couple of things. After replacing the plugs I seemed to have no problems. Then the plane sat for a bit over 3 weeks (mostly it was due to the thick smoke all around) and now I have this new, very repeatable phenomenon. I'm scratching my head how the sudden appearance of problematic voltage spikes could be caused by a certain range of MAP. This is not engine RPM, mind you, which stays at 2400 throughout.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Rich »

Today I ran an additional test that Surefly requested (through my mechanic).

1. Get the plane in a state where the Surefly is acting up.
2. Turn off the avionics master. This is to protect the avionics, but it also isolates them as the source of the problem.
3. Turn off the alternator.

After 2 and 3, observe the result. I had a 4th step (turn off the master) queued up, as this would take out things like the VM1000, strobe, AI, and whatnot, though the Hobbs would still run. But it wasn't necessary. In my case, after 3 the Surefly smoothed out.

These are to confirm that system electrical spikes/noise are causing the problem. Curiously, today I had to take the MAP down close to 14" to initiate the effect. Anyway, the gizmo is on order and is scheduled for delivery this Friday. These days one does not bet the bank on projected delivery dates.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Steve
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:23 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N432SC
Airports: 1T7
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: SureFly Electronic Ignition

Post by Steve »

Rich:

What alternator are you running? Several years ago, my original alternator started to act up (occasionally failing to come on line - I think it was the brushes) and I changed it out for a PlanePower unit. Lighter, and it charges at idle. Don't know about the electrical "spikiness" of either variety though.

Steve
Post Reply