G1000 NXi Phase III

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ememic99
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by ememic99 »

Chris wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:55 pm
chili4way wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pm
Chris, you're also missing the STC cost
I'm just quoting published numbers for things which are already advertised as available by Diamond. I'm not suggesting that this price is applicable to airframes for which STCs aren't already available. This part of the thread started as a dicussion about upgrading a Lycoming DA40, which is already certified for both GFC700 and NXi.
I gave the number I got last month from Diamond - €90.000 ($100.000) for GFC700 - parts & labor, tax included (WAAS upgrade is charged on top of this if you don’t have it).

GFC700 is also certified for DA42 TDI.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Chris »

ememic99 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:42 am
Chris wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:55 pm
chili4way wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pm
Chris, you're also missing the STC cost
I'm just quoting published numbers for things which are already advertised as available by Diamond. I'm not suggesting that this price is applicable to airframes for which STCs aren't already available. This part of the thread started as a dicussion about upgrading a Lycoming DA40, which is already certified for both GFC700 and NXi.
I gave the number I got last month from Diamond - €90.000 ($100.000) for GFC700 - parts & labor, tax included (WAAS upgrade is charged on top of this if you don’t have it).
That's quite an increase from the Q3 2020 pricing. I don't know how that's split between parts and labor, but it seeems like >20% increase in one year. Maybe they just don't want to do any more of these since they're already fully-subscribed with other stuff.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by CFIDave »

FYI, DA42 GFC700 autopilot is more expensive than for a DA40, since Diamond twins have a GFC700 yaw damper servo with linkage to the rudder.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Chris »

CFIDave wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:24 am
FYI, DA42 GFC700 autopilot is more expensive than for a DA40, since Diamond twins have a GFC700 yaw damper servo with linkage to the rudder.
Sure. The parts pricing from Q3 2020 indicated a $4k premium for the DA42 version, presumably because of this. I had already factored that into the numbers when deriving the >20% increase from last year.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by ememic99 »

Chris wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:43 am
CFIDave wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:24 am
FYI, DA42 GFC700 autopilot is more expensive than for a DA40, since Diamond twins have a GFC700 yaw damper servo with linkage to the rudder.
Sure. The parts pricing from Q3 2020 indicated a $4k premium for the DA42 version, presumably because of this. I had already factored that into the numbers when deriving the >20% increase from last year.
That’s why few people (including one mechanic who performs GFC500/600, G500 and GTN upgrades on other types as well as maintenance of all Diamond fleet) calculated that, according to Garmin prices and reasonably priced labor, it would be possible to have DA42 TDI NXi upgrade for $100k. Moreover, yaw damper could be omitted because realistically it’s not needed which would simplify the upgrade and help having this price under control.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by pietromarx »

Rick wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:25 pm
I'm not a regulatory guru, but what is stopping some Garmin-savvy avionics shop from just upgrading a legacy G1000 DA40XLS to G1000 NXi via a 337? Basically, a "G1000 upgrade" - to a configuration that is already being sold by Diamond. The justification would be that new NXi features provide an improvement in safety. It would certainly be a "Major" Repair or Alteration, but isn't that the purpose of the 337? How "major" does an alteration have to be before it doesn't qualify anymore...
Jumping in a bit late, but I think this is exactly the point. The whole point of the GX000 series was that they would be upgradeable by replacing the LRUs (line REPLACEABLE units). The actual effort should be minimal. This should not be particularly challenging for someone with a Garmin autopilot or without an autopilot. (I do not know if the NXi supports the KAP140, but would guess it does not.) If there is an existing example of the system -- which clearly there is since they're manufacturing them -- then the FAA, our actual regulator, would view this as being nothing more than a typical avionics upgrade.

WRT the engine-monitoring side, for the Lycoming this is pretty elderly stuff these days. I can't speak for the TDis, but attaching engine-monitoring leads to a Lycoming has been done for 60 years... :-)
Last edited by pietromarx on Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by pietromarx »

chili4way wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pm
Chris, you're also missing the STC cost, i.e. the development, documentation (operation & installation) & certification costs divided by the number of participating owners. URBE's €10K STC charge (for their much simpler GIA63-63W WAAS upgrade) is probably the most the market would bear. The question is whether or not enough owners would sign up to fund the NRE costs.

Most owners (who haven't done what Collin has done) will need to pay for the KAP140 removal and GFC700 installation, which probably includes the labor-intensive HIRF box installation so the avionics installation matches the DA42-NG/VI.

I think Emir's $100K price point is close enough to assess the demand & business opportunity. Price increases likely suggest it may be on the low side. How many owners would invest $100K+ into an airplane with a market value in the $335K-$415K that results in an airplane with the avionics capability of a plane that would otherwise cost upwards of $800K?
Do we know that there an actual STC for the NXi version of the DA-40-180? It really depends upon whether the GIA-64Ws are considered to be much of an upgrade, something I'm a little dubious about given what we know. Garmin would have done what it could to avoid having to get a separate STC. Further, as I recall, Garmin owns (at least used to own) the STC for the G1000 installation on the DA-40-180.

***It would be very helpful if an owner of a DA-40-180-Nxi would look in their service logs and reply with the STC ID under which their airplanes were manufactured and had the G1000NXi installed under.***
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Ed McDonald »

I can't comment on the Diamond/Transport Canada relationship as I am not privy to that however I can comment on Transport Canada and aircraft certification.
A number of years ago I had a peripheral involvement in the certification of a GPS/FMS from Canadian Marconi. It seemed that Transport Canada felt a need to "put their stamp" on it by demanding some goofy changes despite this device being approved by the FAA. One demand I recall was placing a circle around the N, S, E and W keys on the keyboard to denote "North, South, East and West". Nice idea and since then other FMS manufacturers have done it (Honeywell, etc.) but this was a deal breaker for Transport Canada at that time.
More recently with the B737 MAX fiasco, Transport Canada has decided to evaluate the MAX software now despite the FAA's certification of it and the reciprocity agreement between TC and the FAA where each agency recognizes the other's certification. This is all political as TC cannot offer any better insight to what the FAA or Boeing can but once again they feel compelled to "put their stamp" on it.
I suspect that since TC is the agency certifying the Diamond products being produced in Canada that they are going through the software with a fine tooth comb wanting to avoid a MAX situation. And since the Garmin 1000 NXi is an integrated FMS and really the heart of the DA62 I am not surprised by the delays that are being incurred. That is my speculation.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by pietromarx »

You are undoubtedly correct on this. I would just mention that the delays precede the Boeing / FAA issues by a number of years.

Parenthetically, I have the sense that national regulators everywhere are losing trust in their peers. A CE mark in healthcare does not get you past having to pass regulatory tests in every nation in the EU. Many European countries do not accept regulatory work done in other parts of Europe. And so on and so forth across the world. The international standards are, well, not as international as they used to be.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Charles K »

Referencing below comment last paragraph from an earlier post. I had mine done right away and early this year. The price was too good to pass up. My understanding is that the supply of GIA63Ws has dried up and that Diamond was not taking deposits until they secured more GIA63Ws. This is based upon some posts on the original upgrade thread. My friend is having his done later this year - but he made the deposit and obtained the units early in the year. I think more will upgrade at the offered price as long as the units are available. it is one of the best things I did for my plane because I really now appreciate what I missed by not having LPV approach capability - and it all works great with my 2004 KAP140 equipped DA40.

As I have one of the older planes with the G1000 installed per STC - I might go for one of the newer Garmin G3X type units or G500, etc that is easier to upgrade if such time comes that Garmin cannot either repair or replace/upgrade failed components. I just saw a G3X in my friends 1977 Archer and it was quite impressive. With 1400 flight hours, always hangared and the price we paid originally for the plane - it is well worth continued investment.

"I guess sometimes "what you have is what you'll always have" is sufficient capability. This is the only reason I can fathom why non-WAAS DA40-180 owners haven't put down a deposit for the WAAS upgrade program to secure their place in line. (DA42-TDI owners may be reasonably waiting for the required software to be available.)"
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