New airplane prices

[alexanderk]

Which totally makes sense - it climbs great on 180hp, but in cruise it really does not need more than 80. Really, all that happens is that it makes more noise or less noise, on more fuel or less fuel. The cruise speed doesn't change appreciably. Fun to fly though... for a short while.

[Doug]

If I were to get an LSA, it would have to be the Carbon Cub SS -- somehow they bent the LSA regs to permit a 180-hp engine, but force you to throttle back to 80 hp after 5 minutes (using the honor system!). 250 lbs lighter than a SuperCub with a climb rate of more than 2000 fpm.

A friend of mine got one last summer. It's is a blast to fly! A little awkward to get in back seat, poor heater and fussy to start due to small battery but a great putzing around plane. In Canada it's in the experimental class so it's even more so of a hotrod. It will beat the heck out of $200,000 for a nicely finished one.

[Mchargmg]

Hi all,

I have flown LSA's and the DA-20. I find them much the same in terms of flight characteristics. The DA-20 is about 15 kts faster, and carries a bit more than the LSA I flew (the Gobosh). However, the new plane prices do not compare at all. A nice LSA is about $125k new, and the DA-20 is something like $100k more.

I think where the LSA really makes sense is in the training environment. That is where I flew the Gobosh. It was new, handled nicely, and seemed indestructible. The DA-20 new is nicer I think, but not a $100k nicer....

Just one persons opinion.

cheers

Geoff

[alexanderk]

More like 50-60k nicer for the new one, not 100k

[bcocheran]

More like 50-60k nicer for the new one, not 100k

Like Geoff said, closer to 100k. Base model is 188,000. That's already 62,000 newer on steam gauges model. A NICE one will be near $100,000 more.


Brad - N216DG - KELK
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[alexanderk]

Well, "nice one" is the G500 and WAAS. The LSAs don't have that. The base model is still better equipped than most LSA's. And the "list MSRP" advertised, but is not what you always buy it for. Hmmm, how do I know

[Mchargmg]

Hi again all,

Well you can get a new Pipistrel Virus SW with a Dynon Skyview 10 inch avionics with autopilot and adsb wx for $135k. I think that would do for me. The DA-20 with glass Garmin 500 is on their website at $228k. I admit the two systems are not the same, one is certified, one is not. I think I can be happy with the $135k plane that is 20kts faster.

If you are looking at a trainer version, the difference is even more stark. The Pipistrel Alpha goes for $90k. That is a basic plane, steam gauges and an 80 hp engine. The base buy in for a steam gauge DA-20 (no autopilot) is $207k on the Diamond website. That seems a really big difference. I have flown the Virus SW, not the Alpha. My impression was the Virus is very "light" on the controls compared to the DA-20. Both are great planes. Word on the street is the Alpha flies like the Virus. Pipistrel gets all of its performance out of reducing drag. How an 80 hp plane would perform at density altitude is anyone's guess, mine is not so hot:-)

The title of the thread is new airplane prices. I just don't think a $200k 2 place plane is a market winner. It is not clear if a $125k 2 place plane is a winner either by the way. I think that is one of the main reasons the experimental market has taken off. If you are willing to take he admitted risk of building your own plane, you can get a lot more performance for less (though not a lot less) money.

The experimental that fills the same niche as the DA-20 most closely is the RV-9a. It has a 160 hp engine, and cruises at 160 kts if you are willing to burn 8-9 gph. Cruises at 140 kts if you like something closer to 6-7 gph. You can build with a new engine and all glass avionics for something like $90k. Of course you are going to spend 3-5 years of your life not flying as much while you build it, and you have an experimental plane at the end, not a certified one. No easy answers in today's airplane world.

If I were to bet, I think the way the market will go is to have planes that are not certified, but "experimental" built by overseas manufacturers like the Virus SW and the Panthera. It is too bad there is not a similar move in the aviation industry here in the US (no offense to our overseas readers!).

cheers

Geoff

[Rich]

The responses have morphed into a comparison between LSA's and Part 23 A/C. But the fact remains that the industry (LSA's included) are not succeeding at improving the price situation and reverse the trend of a shrinking industry.

In the early 70's the median household income in the US was around $9,000 and "everyman's" airplanes (C172, Cherokee 140) had a new price of about $22,000. Call it 2.5 times the median income. A Cessna 150 (the closest analog to a LSA) was about $16,000. Just less than twice the median income. Sales were less than impressive. In those days these planes a large fraction (possibly a majority) were purchased by FBOs for training and rental. I spoke with numerous folks who would say: "flying is too expensive and it's not all that useful anyway".

During the 70's prices rose only modestly during a time of high inflation. A bubble in flight activity happened in that decade. This was largely due to a provision in VA education benefits. (I got my Commercial, Instrument and CFI tickets this way.) But it was also a time of Boomers reaching a certain threshold of personal financial security. These factors caused aircraft sales to peak in 1978. As with all bubbles, it burst. Piston-engine sales plummeted to where production all but ceased for about 10 years. For financial reasons in the early 80's I tried for years to sell my '72 Cherokee (which I bought used for $9,000) for $8,000. Not even a single response.

Today the median household income is about $50,000. "everyman's" airplanes go for $250K and with a few options bounce up at $350K. So it's now 5 times median income. And LSA's, as they are actually delivered, run about 2.5 times the median income. For a two-place airplane. Yes, they're faster than a 150, but they still have only 2-seats. Even if they had 4, it's not really any better situation than 40 years ago. I speak with numerous folks who say today: "flying is too expensive and it's not all that useful anyway".

[alexanderk]

I also believe that the da20 is 80k overpriced. That's the sole reason we don't see many more new airplanes out there.

Personally, it does not make any difference if an airplane is certified or experimental category. I don't factor this in into the purchasing decision. In fact, I'm also more attracted to the experimental due to the options that are available for maintenance and upgrades.

Pipistrel Virus SW is a great airplane. But to be objective - it is not any faster than the DA20 (assuming wheelpants and MT prop installed). I flew both a fair bit. They are within 1-3 knot difference in TAS. Admittedly, the Virus does it on 100hp engine and less expensive mogas, but the fuel flow is similar with a slight nod to the Rotax. Rotax is arguably a nicer engine though.
Control forces on the Virus are slightly less, but not by much. Somewhere in between the RV7 and DA20. Let's be realistic, if they were "very light" in comparison, what would be say about a DA40 then? "Impossible to fly due to heavy controls"? Let's be realistic.
Where the Virus was a no go for me (after good time in it) - the cabin space (or lack of it), crashworthiness and the spar/reinforcement tubes in the head area. Unfortunately this is a really poor design. It is always very pleasant to go back and sit in the DA20 after the Virus, in contrast it feels more "like a real airplane" funny enough.
Flying wise Virus is different. Better in some ways (better glide ratio, faster roll). Lesser visibility both forward and around. Once you start flying more advanced maneuvers - throwing the airplane around, spinning etc - the DA20 is considerably more fun, and more of the "drivers" airplane.
You can see that most of the differences come from the design philosophy and weight limitations on the LSA side, where Virus is arguably the most brilliant airplane of the SLA world. I almost bought one. Well equipped with the Dynon, autopilot, air breaks and delivered (not a kit version) it was about $155k. A 4-year old DA40 with 175 TT was 80k. I picked up the 20.

Also extensively flew the RV7A. Liked it a lot. Still the Diamond won over. Funny how that goes differently for different people. The RV9 on the other hand, I don't think it has much going for it, unless you get into one because you want to build it not for other reasons.

[alexanderk]

Correction: "A 4-year old DA20 with 175 TT was 80k. I picked up the 20.