Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
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- CFIDave
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Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
This was just published in a Continental press release about its diesel engines. (CD-135 is the newer name for the original Thielert 135 hp 2.0 liter engine from the DA42 TDI, although newer ones have dual-mass flywheels (like Austros) to replace clutches.)
"Over the last 52 weeks the CD-135 only had 1.74 in-flight shut downs per 100,000 flight hours which is far beyond industry standard.
According to the FAA statistics, engines used in general aviation experience an average of 10 engine failures or engine-related “in-flight shutdowns” (IFSDs) in 100,000 flight hours. Since market introduction, the IFSD rate for Continental has always been less than half of the GA average and has steadily decreased year over year. The most recent CD-155 shows only 1.57 IFSD due to improved field quality. The CD-135 and CD-155 are therefore probably proven to be the most reliable piston engines in general aviation."
Has anyone seen similar statistics from Austro? I haven't heard of any Austro in-flight shutdowns except for those attributable to pilot error (e.g., accidentally shutting off the Engine Master instead of the electric fuel pump, or taking off with a dead main battery -- no longer an issue with required backup ECU batteries onboard the aircraft).
"Over the last 52 weeks the CD-135 only had 1.74 in-flight shut downs per 100,000 flight hours which is far beyond industry standard.
According to the FAA statistics, engines used in general aviation experience an average of 10 engine failures or engine-related “in-flight shutdowns” (IFSDs) in 100,000 flight hours. Since market introduction, the IFSD rate for Continental has always been less than half of the GA average and has steadily decreased year over year. The most recent CD-155 shows only 1.57 IFSD due to improved field quality. The CD-135 and CD-155 are therefore probably proven to be the most reliable piston engines in general aviation."
Has anyone seen similar statistics from Austro? I haven't heard of any Austro in-flight shutdowns except for those attributable to pilot error (e.g., accidentally shutting off the Engine Master instead of the electric fuel pump, or taking off with a dead main battery -- no longer an issue with required backup ECU batteries onboard the aircraft).
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- carym
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Dave,
I can't say anything about Austro shutdowns, but I would be careful in interpreting the data from Continental. I had significant issues with one engine not providing appropriate power above 14K feet and it turns out that the ECU needed to be replaced because the MP sensor is in the ECU box and there was a discrepancy between to ECU A and ECU B on that ECU that made the engine surge above 14K feet. While this was not an IFSD, it was pretty close. Flying over the rockies and not being able to maintain 14K because of the engine surging was very uncomfortable. While my engines are 1.7, I don't think this would have made any difference between 1.7 and 2.0 engines, and I suspect the ECU is the same on the Austro's.
As an aside, it is crazy that the MP sensor is in the ECU, and this sensor can't be replaced without replacing the entire ECU. Replacing the ECU with a used one costs around $1500.
I can't say anything about Austro shutdowns, but I would be careful in interpreting the data from Continental. I had significant issues with one engine not providing appropriate power above 14K feet and it turns out that the ECU needed to be replaced because the MP sensor is in the ECU box and there was a discrepancy between to ECU A and ECU B on that ECU that made the engine surge above 14K feet. While this was not an IFSD, it was pretty close. Flying over the rockies and not being able to maintain 14K because of the engine surging was very uncomfortable. While my engines are 1.7, I don't think this would have made any difference between 1.7 and 2.0 engines, and I suspect the ECU is the same on the Austro's.
As an aside, it is crazy that the MP sensor is in the ECU, and this sensor can't be replaced without replacing the entire ECU. Replacing the ECU with a used one costs around $1500.
Cary
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Unit replacement in the electronics industry is a quandary. Do I make six separate boards where I now have possible communication problems between the boards (and five or ten more points of failure, depending on how you count), or do I stick it all on one board so you have to replace one expensive part?
In general, things are moving to the latter solution, in part because it requires less skill in the field to diagnose a problem. Even the Apple laptop I brought in last night (couple keys sticking on the keyboard), they ran a foolish diagnostic program for 20min and they will now send the entire thing to Texas where almost the entire machine will be replaced. Two years ago they could have dropped in a new keyboard.
In general, things are moving to the latter solution, in part because it requires less skill in the field to diagnose a problem. Even the Apple laptop I brought in last night (couple keys sticking on the keyboard), they ran a foolish diagnostic program for 20min and they will now send the entire thing to Texas where almost the entire machine will be replaced. Two years ago they could have dropped in a new keyboard.
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- Rich
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Anyone pick up on the irony of this?
"This line of engines produced for us by another company is 6 times as reliable as the ones we make ourselves - Love, Continental Motors"
"This line of engines produced for us by another company is 6 times as reliable as the ones we make ourselves - Love, Continental Motors"
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
- Colin
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
It's okay, I flew a Lycoming before I switched to Continental's "More Reliable" line.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
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http://www.flyingsummers.com
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- bcocheran
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
I have heard talk that the DA42 may be offered with the Continental motor again soon, as an option instead of the Austro. Is Austro owned by Diamond (or by Christian)?
Brad Cocheran (KELK)
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Are you talking about the Continental AvFuel or the Continental Diesel (aka Thielert)? If the latter, it still remains available if you wish and can be installed as the 2.0 or the 2.0s. Austro is part of the Diamond group, and it is family owned and headed by Christian (although I believe his father still has a say in the running of the company).bcocheran wrote:I have heard talk that the DA42 may be offered with the Continental motor again soon, as an option instead of the Austro. Is Austro owned by Diamond (or by Christian)?
Cary
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S35 (1964 V-tail Bonanza)
Alaska adventure: http://mariashflying.tumblr.com
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
IMHO, there's zero chance that Diamond will ever again use Continental (Thielert) diesels in its new aircraft. The Dries family that owns Diamond Aircraft invested more than $50M in establishing Austro Engines, so they need to get a return on their investment by maximizing installation of Austro engines. That's not such a bad thing for new Diamond aircraft buyers, since Austro diesels have performed well and achieved high levels of reliability out in the field -- as demonstrated by increasing TBOs for the AE300 engine from 1000, to 1200, to 1500, and last year 1800 hours. In my experience Austro engines start more easily and run smoother than Continental/Thielert engines.
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Dave, I do not disagree, at all! I have a friend looking at 42's and he mentioned he was seeing in forums, somewhere, that Diamond was soon to offer continental as a choice on the 42. my feedback was nearly identical to yours, but stranger things have happened!
Brad Cocheran (KELK)
N373AM (2005 Diamond DA20)
N951TB (2006 Piper Meridian)
and several others...
Former:
N216DG (G1000) (40.698) - KELK
N108LC (G1000) 2013 SR22T
N835SR (Avidyne) 2006 SR22
N373AM (2005 Diamond DA20)
N951TB (2006 Piper Meridian)
and several others...
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N108LC (G1000) 2013 SR22T
N835SR (Avidyne) 2006 SR22
- CFIDave
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Re: Thielert/Continental Diesel Reliabilty
Maybe your friend saw that DA42s previously-equipped with Thielert 1.7 or 2.0 135 hp engines can be replaced with new CD-135 (2.0 135 hp) or CD-155 (2.0s 155 hp) Continental engines, or for considerably more money, 168 hp Austro AE300 engines.
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