Sensible use and choice of life raft

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linzhiming
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Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by linzhiming »

Hello all,

At the risk of getting referred to other threads in this forum or external sites like equipped.org or AvWeb (which I have gone through but without me being able to come to a clear conclusion, especially with respect to my personal situation and the design of a DA40 interior), I would like to get your view as to whether and what life raft to get as I recently moved from Singapore to London.

Base use case here is that the bodies of water that I would be overflying are the English Channel and the part of the Atlantic Ocean between England and northern France where sea temperatures vary between 18 degrees Celsius in the summer and as low as seven degrees Celsius in the winter. Given potential icing conditions in winter, I cannot assume that I can fly high enough to reach either side of the English Channel by gliding.

Also, I would be flying in a DA40 with two children (11 and 6 years old) taking the rear seats of the aircraft. GIven this, the life raft would need to be placed at the front of the baggage compartment behind the rear seats.

Main consideration for me has been weight vs protection whereby weight not only from a W&B standpoint but more from the standpoint of whether I (or more likely the children) would be able to heave a heavy life raft from the back in case of a ditching scenario.

In terms of the weight vs protection question, I have been giving serious consideration to the Winslow Ultra-Light Offshore raft for 4 persons (http://winslowliferaft.com/wp-content/u ... e-1-NP.pdf) which weights 32 lbs (15 kg).

Do you think that would be a sensible choice for the water conditions I would likely face in a ditching scenario? And more, importantly, do you think the weight and size are realistic so that an 11-year-old girl can retrieve it from the front baggage compartment if needed? Or should I give up protection for lesser weight and size but increased likelihood of her being able to retrieve it and get it out of the aircraft in an emergency?

I would appreciate a view and thought process for life raft selection from those that own a life raft, especially those with two children and thus with a life raft in the baggage compartment.

Thanks

Wolfgang
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dgger
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by dgger »

Wolfgang,

Perhaps, I might be able to add a thought or two here. I have been carrying a similar Winslow raft. Including some factory-packed goodies, such as a PLB, mine comes out to be about 18kg.

The last time I had used it was in the Caribbean where I would keep it in the back between my kids (7 and 10 yrs). To be honest: there is absolutely zero chance my kids would be able to hand it to the front. Not in a training excercise and certainly not in distress, with pain, etc. It is simply to heavy. Even for myself it is a mayor effort to grab it with my arm extended and pull it through the seats while the canopy is closed (in my DA42).

But lets not downplay the other problem: In particular when you consider to travel over a cold body of water I would suggest you give the "getting into the raft" part of a ditching some extra thoughts. 7C is cold. Very cold. Immersion suit cold. Plus, there is the issue with floatation, shock, injuries, etc.

You could try the get a feeling for the experience of ditching by visiting a course and just try it yourself. I went to visit a commercial HUET (helicopter underwater egress training) course that was readily available. It was eye-opening to say the least.

All in all, I have a feeling to avoid the issue, at least of cold water, might be least troublesome route you could take. To simply cross at Dover, climb high and, if need be, bring oxygen might be an easier and safer choice for a family trip - at least during the cold season.

Best of luck!
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by Sandy »

I recognize that this is a serious topic, so I hope no one is offended if I relate a true story that took place about 25 years ago. I was, then, flying a Piper Lance, and I was making my first flight to the Bahamas from Fort Lauderdale International (KFLL). While I would have to go back to my logbook to tell you the precise year, the date was December 26th. I was with my wife, three children, and mother-in-law, so I decided it would be best to rent a six-person raft for the flight.

Upon arriving in the Bahamas we learned that December 26th is "Boxer Day", a national holiday, and everything was closed! After walking around a bit, and realizing there was nothing to do, we flew back to KFLL. I went inside to return the raft, and my younger son, who was about 6 at the time, went inside with me. When he realized that I was returning the raft, he started to cry. I asked him what was wrong and why he was crying. His reply.... "We didn't get to use it!"

On a more serious note, it's best to have it and cry over not using it, than not have it and cry later.

Sandy
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by ultraturtle »

At 7C, time of useful consciousness is less than an hour. You and yours would not survive beyond 3 hours without exposure suits, so I would definitely consider them in your planning.

They need to be worn, not just accessible, and are rather uncomfortable.
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Keith M
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by Keith M »

In my experience, no family member would fly with me, if I told them they had to wear an immersion suit. Given the difficulty of getting into a life raft, carrying one would be pointless without having practised first in a ditching course, but no family member would fly with me ...

My flights across the English Channel are from the Isle of White to the Cherbourg Peninsula (about 50 nm over water). The best altitude I can hope for a transit through Southampton's airspace is 5000 ft and I generally maintain that until I reach France, so that no extra stress is placed on the engine in a climb. I wear a life vest, and keep a discrete eye out for boats below to aim for in case of a forced landing.

Reckless? Maybe, but it kept everybody happy until I had an EFATO in the circuit last year, due to a maintenance error when the plane was just back from its annual. Now, it's a moot point, as my wife will no longer fly with me under any circumstances, even though I was flying alone and was able to land on the crosswind runway, without further incident.

So, it depends on your risk profile, which changes as your life circumstances change. I'd need to get a DA42 to break the impasse, but flying commercial is much cheaper!
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Lou
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by Lou »

How do our aircraft behave in a ditching? I have often wondered about that scenario. I don't know of any accounts but maybe someone out their does. But if they tend to flip, a life raft is the least of your problems.

(and Sandy, it's "Boxing Day", and a d***ed fine custom at that!)
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linzhiming
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by linzhiming »

Thanks, Peter and others, for your replies. Sorry for the late response from me as we were busy with move logistics from Singapore to London and have now finally "arrived", especially with my aircraft reassembled, I can say that we have finally arrived!
dgger wrote:Wolfgang,

Perhaps, I might be able to add a thought or two here. I have been carrying a similar Winslow raft. Including some factory-packed goodies, such as a PLB, mine comes out to be about 18kg.

The last time I had used it was in the Caribbean where I would keep it in the back between my kids (7 and 10 yrs). To be honest: there is absolutely zero chance my kids would be able to hand it to the front. Not in a training excercise and certainly not in distress, with pain, etc. It is simply to heavy. Even for myself it is a mayor effort to grab it with my arm extended and pull it through the seats while the canopy is closed (in my DA42).
I went to the office of one of my ferry pilot friends who has a Winslow raft and felt that it was indeed quite heavy even for me to lift. Definitely no chance if the raft was in the baggage compartment behind the rear seat row. He however came up with the idea of keeping in the centre between the two rear seats as it is around 20 cm (8 inches) wide and that is has to be placed there only whilst crossing water, it could be put back behind the rear seat row after the water crossing has been completed. I doubt the children will be able to put it into the baggage compartment behind their seats as it would not fit through the gap between the two rear seats. I have not had a chance to measure how much of their seats would be taken up by having the life raft placed between them but I can imagine that it would not be very comfortable for them, especially on a 2-3-hour journey. Has anyone tried that before and has experience to share?
dgger wrote:
But lets not downplay the other problem: In particular when you consider to travel over a cold body of water I would suggest you give the "getting into the raft" part of a ditching some extra thoughts. 7C is cold. Very cold. Immersion suit cold. Plus, there is the issue with floatation, shock, injuries, etc.
Agreed, I learnt scuba diving in 8-degree water off Newport in Rhode Island and it was bloody cold in a wetsuit (we did not use drysuits). Various tables seem to suggest 30 minutes to exhaustion or unconsciousness in that cold water. During scuba diving I remember one instance when I had severe pain around my forehead when I hit cold water which was extremely unpleasant. I hope the time would be enough to somehow get to the life raft on water. The thought itself does send shivers across my whole body.
dgger wrote:
You could try the get a feeling for the experience of ditching by visiting a course and just try it yourself. I went to visit a commercial HUET (helicopter underwater egress training) course that was readily available. It was eye-opening to say the least.

All in all, I have a feeling to avoid the issue, at least of cold water, might be least troublesome route you could take. To simply cross at Dover, climb high and, if need be, bring oxygen might be an easier and safer choice for a family trip - at least during the cold season.

Best of luck!
I agree that crossing as high as possible would be the safest way to cross the channel, however with freezing/icing levels around 5000 ft in the winter, it would be difficult on IMC days to get as high as 8000-10000 ft. During warmer months, cruising at those altitudes should be easily possible (I just flew over to Germany this week and crossed at FL80).

What would you do? Simply avoid leaving England and the channel during the winter and spring months (that's when water would be the coldest) or do you think it is a risk worth taking? You would have to be unlucky that your engine fails exactly during the 5-10-minute period that you are out of gliding distance. In that hopefully quite unlikely case, hopefully one can ditch reasonably close to a ship or the coast and hopefully the life raft will somehow help (there are lots of "hopefully" in the sentence). What is the others' take on this?

Wolfgang
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Re: Sensible use and choice of life raft

Post by Antoine »

Hi Wolfgang and welcome to Europe! I am glad that you are settled and your bird reassembled.
Here my opinion on this water crossing topic.
I believe that the first challenge is to get a fixed gear airplane down without flipping it over.
Knowing where you come from I assume you have good training on emergencies over water.
Given the amount of sea traffic in the channel I believe it is much better to have everyone wear life jackets and be prepared for exiting to a nearby vessel as opposed to trying to get shocked children to deal with a life boat.
I would not attempt a crossing in anything but VMC with decent ceiling (so you can spot the ships) and reasonable swell (so you can ditch safely).
If you intend to do it regularly there is only one safe solution: DA42...
Take care and keep in touch!
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