Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

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MarkA
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by MarkA »

I suspect you're correct on the process and there are significant costs associated with the development and testing efforts to make an airframe-specific G1000 software release.

In addition, currently there's NO revenue from the installed base of G1000 users for these software updates since Diamond doesn't charge for these maintenance updates. That tends to put to the priority of efforts like this pretty low on their to-do-list.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by TwinStarScott »

Thanks to Hans, Mark & Peter for your comments and thought-provoking ideas!

Hans – I read you loud and clear. Here are my thoughts: if the status quo continues much longer, I would be supportive of a number of your suggestions by taking it to the “next step”. The question is really one of timing and I'm going to revert back to an earlier post by suggesting we take a wait and see approach until after Oshkosh. By the time that major event rolls around it will have been roughly nine months since the petition drive was initiated and my inclination is to give DAI a few more months of leeway. DAI will have been given sufficient time by then to make their legacy intentions known to all.

Right or wrong, I believe this the best course of action (actually mostly in-action) for the time-being. Yet there certainly isn't any harm in discussing options if DAI continues to give the legacy G1000 owners the silent treatment. There are also these realities:

1) this will require substantial involvement from many other highly motivated DAN members. Therefore I might suggest you start a new thread looking for such volunteers, you certainly can count me in as one of them*.

2) The legacy G1000 article by Mike Collins has yet to be published and we all need to see if this has any noticeable changes with the OEM's. Of course, we will be extremely focused in on DAI's response.

3) Thanks again to Mike Collins - as AOPA's regulatory department is involved at this point and I believe this could well do wonders, in time, for all legacy equipped aircraft. Of course, with the grounding of the 737 Max and related MCAS tragedies, the timing isn't the greatest for the GA community to be approaching the FAA to lighten up on their regulation for G1000 software upgrades. Hopefully this at least somewhat addresses today's posts by Mark and Peter.

4) Finally, the above are simply my own opinions, and I have absolutely no control in preventing other members from taking a different path.

While on the subject of the Boeing 737 MAX, episode 104 on the https://aviationnewstalk.com/ podcast offers a great auto-pilot refresher for GA pilots.

*Just to be clear though, I will most likely not be taking the lead on this second push, as I've put several hundred hours into this project since November and have shelved a number of other high priorities – simply because I felt this was such an important issue that needed to be addressed. And while I've put my heart and soul into doing whatever it takes, everyone needs a break at some point to re-group. Which I will need soon, before diving back in again head first, should this even be required.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by TimS »

vontresc wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:09 pm It would be nice if the testing could be done o. The base code, but I don’t know if the G1000 architecture would lend itself to that.
From what I have previously read; the fAA effectively requires CMMI level 5. This makes it rather difficult to simply just "merge" the latest code with the airframe specific items.

Also, the CPU and systems are super old. That means the processing power is rather pathetic compared to other "modern" CPUs. Think of it this way, a cheap $40 smartphone likely has more processing power than what is in the G1000. Generally you can infer that means the code is highly optimized by hand; this makes it harder to "modularize" the code.

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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by Rich »

I'm speculating here, but the G1000 software architecture may not lend itself to easy manipulation required to adapt it to different airframes and equipment. I've seen this kind of thing in software systems before. What should be driven by some sort of data repository provided by the customer (Diamond/Instrument Shop, e.g.) may be written into the code itself.

Being at the heart of virtually everything there is a need to take the standard stuff from Garmin and replace it without affecting the existing information about the specific airframe. Consider a number of variations, just among DA40's:

DA40-180 vs. DA40F vs. DA40-CD135/155 vs. DA40 NG
KAP140 vs. GFC700
WAAS vs non WAAS
GTX33/GTX33ES/GTX345R/FS210
Various different generations/versions of LRU's
Assorted other inputs like TCAS, stormscope, etc.

I see inklings of this potential SW weakness in the STC's for the GFC500,. Coded into each unit by Garmin are the limits for the ESP airspeeds specific to the type into which it is to be installed and would not be field-adjustable, based on the wording of the STC. So software updates for these units would need to be individually crafted to each type (at a minimum). (There are other obvious negative effects to this approach, as well, but that is quite a bit off-topic.)
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by TwinStarScott »

It seems me (as a software company owner) the real issue is that there's no financial motivation for the vendor to address these requests. There are real costs to making these types of software updates. Given that the "total available market" for these update releases is at most a few thousand units and the current expectations is that they're "free" (except for the cost of installation) it doesn't make financial sense for Diamond or any vendor to do the work.

Historically they way enterprise software companies addressed this in the past is to allow customers to optionally pay an "annual maintenance" fee and in return receive periodic maintenance releases of the software. It that industry, the typical annual maintenance fee is 18 to 20 percent of the list price of the initial software license.

Something to consider.

Skipping back a few posts, this creative solution floated by Mark (N123MZ) deserves additional discussion (IMHO) - as well as specific input from the G1000 petition participants, on our collective willingness to consider such an option. As Mark's suggestion has the potential to allow owners to have an upgrade path that might not ever take place otherwise (both for legacy and in time, even reap benefits for the NXi owners).

Lastly, should there be enough interest, this information could be captured in the spreadsheet as an additional column of data - and then later presented to both Diamond and Garmin.

"Something to consider" indeed Mark - thank you!
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by TimS »

The following was posted on BeechTalk by Ryan O.. Rather informative on some of the details on the G1000.
https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewto ... 0&start=60

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll respond to this with respect to the Piper PA46s. The above statement first isn't true, the airports appear it's that some approaches will not appear.

The "legacy" G1000 air frames (circa 2015) are stuck at GDU Software rev12.xx. They include the G1000 Matrix, Mirage and Meridian versions of the PA-46.

The way the updates for this TC'd software work, Garmin creates an update and the manufactures choose which features/updates they want to roll into their next software revisions. Garmin also marks changes with a severity level (e.g. minor/major). Major changes require flight testing by the manufacturer before integration.

GDU software revision 13.xx was a major code alignment effort to create a common code base with Garmin's other products and as such the entire update was marked major by Garmin. For a manufacturer to roll it out they'd need to re-certify the entire avionics suite in the airframe and would involve a non-trivial flight test program.

In the mean time there was an effort by the FAA to correct some terrain issues via the Instrument Procedures Group back in 2012 and it has continued through the years:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... 01-301.pdf

This resulted in some approaches getting a VDA = 0.00 degrees which is a valid value under ARINC 424. Garmin's GDU prior to rev 15.xx could not handle that value and would not show the approaches. Garmin issued a Service Advisory 1372 and provides a lists these airports:
https://avdb.garmin.com/docs/garmin_dat ... RO_DESCENT

Last count I made it involved 154 approaches.

The solution from Garmin was available in Rev 15.xx which fixes the problem; however since Rev 13.xx was marked major it block several manufactures. In addition, Rev 15.xx is the last update Garmin will provide for the G1000 avionics suite.

Piper then created the "M-Class" airframes (M350 and M500) with this newer G1000 software, but in doing so they also added several new features. For example the M-Class G1000 handles the pressurization control. In implementing these changes resulted in different hardware and rewiring making it impossible to back propagate this configuration to the legacy G1000 airframes.

To solve this problem, Piper and Garmin are actively working on an NXi STC for both the G1000 (pre-NXi) M-Class airframes first and then the legacy G1000 aircraft to upgrade these airframes to the G1000 NXi. The STC has been in progress since Q1-2019.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by ememic99 »

Unfortunately quoted thread shows how ill informed people are. A lot of guessing, misinformation and conclusions without any grounds (in some posts). As the time passes I’m more and more inclined to thinking that the majority of users will have to live with what they have if they don’t want to invest 100k in their aircrafts. We’re trying to find the way to move on from GDU 9.x and at the same time people are stuck with 12.x or 13.x without airframe manufacturers’ support and upgrade path developed.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by NickBudd »

The issue is not only the 100K for the avionics upgrades/retrofit but the 200K cost of the NG engine conversion to be able to do the upgrade. And it is hard to live with planes that are grounded due to lack of spare parts for the avionics or non-complance with controlled airspace regalations.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by ememic99 »

NickBudd wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 6:38 am The issue is not only the 100K for the avionics upgrades/retrofit but the 200K cost of the NG engine conversion to be able to do the upgrade. And it is hard to live with planes that are grounded due to lack of spare parts for the avionics or non-complance with controlled airspace regalations.
Spare parts will not be the problem in near future. And non-compliance will be less issue even longer because WAAS can't be easily mandated. The main problem at the moment (aside from being able to get new software features and fly LPV approaches) is lowering aircrafts resale value on the second hand market and making them less desirable to potential buyers.

If DAI wants to improve customer support, they have to separate avionics upgrade from CD to AE engine exchange (I wouldn't call it upgrade). So if they offer upgrade path to TDI owners, it must not be conditioned with purchasing AE engines because it's not allowed by law (at least in Europe). If you market two items as separated products (e.g. engines and avionic upgrade) then you must not condition purchasing one by purchasing another.

BTW NG upgrade for DA42 is over 350k (only CD to AE engine exchange plus some airframe changes) and full -IV upgrade (AE engines, GFC700, WAAS and all airframe changes) is over 400k.
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Re: Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

Post by Tommy »

It is what it is gentlemen. At some point in this discussion you must accept the reality of the situation and move on. Diamond is not going to change. You have plenty of Diamond’s behavioral history to support this. The wall is not going to move the more you bang your head against it. You’re just going to get more bloodied.
It’s really to bad. Diamond really does have a phenomenal product. There lower tier people are great. London is top shelf. It’s all in the upper tier and that’s not going to change.
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