Outdated Garmin G1000 software - petition sign-up

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Keith M
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by Keith M »

As a software developer, it never crossed my mind when I bought my DA40 TDI that the only way I'd get a software upgrade on the G1000 was to buy a new aircraft. The rationale behind that defies logic, because once that became clear, it was obvious that any new aircraft would be a software dead end as well. Cirrus had a similar problem when they transitioned from Avidyne Entegra to Garmin avionics, but there was a clear advantage to future customers in doing that, and they have subsequently kept its software up to date. Indeed, instead of using that as a bludgeon to get their customers to buy a new aircraft, they use the bizarre (to Diamond) notion of adding features to make them more desirable.

I don't expect new software functionality that the hardware can't handle, but it can't be a major undertaking to implement Garmin's upgrades that apply to existing hardware. After all, all the components of the G1000 are manufactured by Garmin, so they must have performed integration tests before releasing it. Diamond would have to get involved with configuring and testing the interfaces with the engines and autopilot, but there's no reason why Garmin would change those from release to release. Where does the $1 million cost come from?
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by ememic99 »

Where does the $1 million cost come from?
It comes as weak attempt for justifying neglecting customers by impressing them with 7-figures numbers. BTW Mr. Crosby spent less for certifying CD-155 engines for DA42 (including all accessories and aerodynamic changes), new exhaust and Scimitar propellers all by himself without any support from Diamond. So if someone says that is costs more to certify software upgrade than new poweplant then I would seriously question his knowledge in aviation.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by CFIDave »

If you've ever gone through the G1000 software installation process on a DA42 (I have multiple times), you learn that there are many hardware options that must be selected, depending on the particular airframe. You can get a sense of this by reading Diamond's G1000 software installation service bulletins that list numerous options and hardware permutations. Some of the options, e.g., TAS, ADF, DME, and KAP-140 autopilot that require integration with the G1000 aren't even Garmin products. And the work requires actual flight testing on suitably-equipped aircraft to assure proper operation.

All of this is to suggest that software development (and especially testing) may be much more complex than assumed, which leads me to believe the posted Garmin response that G1000 software development and certification for TDI DA42s could actually require a $million investment.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by CFIDave »

ememic99 wrote:BTW Does anyone know what this brought and did anyone install it?

http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin ... ftware.pdf
The latest software version referenced in this document (-22, GDU version 9) states:

The Garmin Pilot ́s Guide P/N 190-00649-04, Rev. A and Cockpit Reference Guide
P/N 190-00406-08, Rev. A must be used.

If you go look these up on Garmin's website, page "v" at the beginning of the Pilot's Guide http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-00649-03_0B_web.pdf
has a table of what features have been added. These include:
GFC 700
GWX 68 Airborne Weather Radar
WAAS
Synthetic Vision System
Terrain-SVS
Other GDU 9.05 parameters

You can use a similar process for other Garmin G1000 software: In Diamond's MSB for a particular G1000 release (located on Diamond's Austrian website), find the reference to a particular Garmin G1000 Pilot's Guide. Then go to the fly.garmin.com website, click on the link for Aviation Manuals on the Support page, then find and download the referenced Pilot's Guide. Near the front it will tell you what new software features have been added on specific dates.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by ememic99 »

G1000 software development and certification for TDI DA42s could actually require a $million investment.
No way but let’s not waste more space on this and let’s agree that we don’t agree. It’s not development from the scratch and all components in DA42-VI that exist in DA42 have the same interface.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by pietromarx »

Let's not forget that others manage to get new versions of software packages out for far more complicated systems than our Diamonds on a regular basis. Many of these companies do it with fewer units and even more regulation. Think of power, transportation infrastructure, scientific instruments, medicine... They even do it in multiple languages and using heterogenous systems less controlled than Garmin's neat universe of self-directed stuff.

This is why we need to help Diamond pivot digitally. More Apple less GM. I use the brands allegorically. (And even GM has been patching my car recently.)
CFIDave wrote:If you've ever gone through the G1000 software installation process on a DA42 (I have multiple times), you learn that there are many hardware options that must be selected, depending on the particular airframe. You can get a sense of this by reading Diamond's G1000 software installation service bulletins that list numerous options and hardware permutations. Some of the options, e.g., TAS, ADF, DME, and KAP-140 autopilot that require integration with the G1000 aren't even Garmin products. And the work requires actual flight testing on suitably-equipped aircraft to assure proper operation.

All of this is to suggest that software development (and especially testing) may be much more complex than assumed, which leads me to believe the posted Garmin response that G1000 software development and certification for TDI DA42s could actually require a $million investment.
I have many times. Actually, this is an indication that new packaging of software for groups of new functionality will cost very little to put together. It is exactly that modularity and structure that allows Garmin to support so many options, airframes, features, engines, etc.

The cost is minimal. There are other issues involved. As I mentioned at the end of my post it is likely that other manufacturers have implicit or explicit control over when and what Diamond owners get.

Also, even at 100 airplanes per package the costs aren't going to be extraordinary.

Without going into much detail please know that I know of what I speak of here. You've used software I've developed...
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by NickBudd »

I contacted Garmin a couple of years ago to ask why there was no WAAS upgrade for TDI G1000 panels. The answer was that Garmin cannot offer products for certified aircraft without the cooperation of the airframe manufacturer. Diamond had given its consent to WAAS for G1000 panels for NG and -IV aircraft but had refused for TDIs. The obvious reason is to induce customers to purchase Austro-powered aircraft, and never mind the safety of TDI owners. So there is no point trying to persuade Garmin. They understand the economics and have the technical capability but cannot legally do this without support from Diamond.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by reinhardj »

I fully agree with Peter and Emir. In a good software architecture (and I assume Garmin HAS good software achitecture) all the options mentioned (TAS, ADF, DME and others) are independed of the airframe/engine and do not need to be certified again in case there is a change of the engine. Furthermore software modules for interfacing to the Technify CD-135 and CD-155 exist from previous software versions, so this should only be a matter of re-arranging existing and certified software modules. Also the engine specific pages in the PDF do exist and do not need to be developed from scratch.
I am not a specialist for aircraft certifications, but a lot of changes are done with Supplementary Type Certificates. Why can a software update not be done based on an STC (owned by whatever company, Garmin or others)? Why shall this only be possible by the TC holder? The upgrade for DA40D to GDU software version 12.03 was done via an STC from Urbe Aero!
It is easy for Garmin to point at Diamond, in case they really would be interested and willing to assign engineering hours they should find a way via STCs.
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by TwinStarScott »

IMHO this is a healthy and worthwhile debate and I very much appreciate everyone that has chosen to participate in it, thus far.

By way of reminder, the initial goal here is to get Diamond to engage with us as an owners group to address this long standing problem. To do that, we need as many owners as possible chiming in to be counted. And if they choose to express their opinion(s) on this subject, all the better.

However, it should be noted that by joining this petition, no one is signing a contract for an undetermined amount of money. You are merely expressing an interest in prompting Diamond to open up a dialogue with us as an owners group. As everyone knows, there is power in numbers and we are not there yet. In fact, not even close, as we need to follow Trek's advice at Garmin by getting the numbers up into the hundreds. Otherwise this endless game of finger pointing will likely continue indefinitely. So if anyone on this forum has ideas on how to get more owners to check in – let's hear your ideas! In the meantime and at a minimum, please encourage anyone you know flying a Diamond to:
1) join this forum and
2) direct them to this thread
3) encourage them to be to counted (12 interested vs. 735 views a/o today)

Should they need reminding (and to the best of my knowledge), all Cirrus owners have long had the ability to routinely receive the most current G1000 software for merely the cost of flying* their airplane to an airport with a Garmin dealer. Cirrus has set a great precedent and a high bar for other OEM's that offer the G1000 system. However, if Diamond responds back by saying there will be a cost of x to each owner for software upgrades (which could vary depending on various factors), then at least we would all have that option**.

One thing seems certain, with an online petition of only 12 owner's, Diamond and Garmin will likely continue to ignore us and this situation.


*or taxiing, if you're lucky enough to be based on a field with a Garmin dealer.

** The mechanics of how this might be implemented by charging for specific Service Bulletins is not entirely clear to me.
To add your aircraft to the G1000 petition (listed below) please send me a PM - thanks!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
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ememic99
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Re: TDI owners: outdated Garmin G1000 software (version 9.05)

Post by ememic99 »

This issue has been brought to the attention of Diamond management and I got confirmation that we would get sound proposal by the end of the year. Let’s see what will happen in next two months. However, I’m encouraging everyone to join this petition to justify the need for resolving this longstanding issue.
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