Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

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Tommy
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Tommy »

Boatguy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:48 am
CFIDave wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:54 am But for my newer 2017 G1000 NXi DA62, I still can't install a GTX345R to replace my GTX335R because the GTX345R is not certified for this aircraft, and there's no software yet available for an NXi DA62 that integrates with the GTX345R. (Back in 2017 the Austrians who then held the DA62 Type Certificate didn't care about ADS-B IN, since it's not as important outside the US.) I've been (im)patiently waiting for Diamond/Garmin to provide the certification and software for a GTX345R for my aircraft -- that I paid extra for 2 and a half years ago! Meanwhile I (and other newer DA62 G1000 NXi owners) have been forced to use a Stratus box and iPad running Foreflight to get ADS-B IN weather and traffic. :scream:
And this on a $1.4M airplane, not an $800K SR22.

I met yesterday with a B737 Captain, line check captain, CFII, MEI, ATP, 16,000hrs, etc. who wanted to know more about my humble DA40NG because he's looking to get back into GA as he nears retirement. He really likes the DA62, but was put off just by the price tag. I was empathetic and didn't even tell him about the software nightmare. But if he gets closer to a decision, I'm going to feel obligated to send him to these forums and refer him to a pilots who purchased DA62's in the last two years.

Diamond, are you listening? You can't treat your flagship product customers this way and expect to be successful. And if the flagship is a failure, it trickles down...
So, Diamond’s behavior hasn’t deviated really since it’s inception and you think you’re going to change it with a few signatures and a disgruntled post. You really haven’t learned anything, have you.
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ememic99
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by ememic99 »

Tommy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:05 am
Boatguy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:48 am
CFIDave wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:54 am But for my newer 2017 G1000 NXi DA62, I still can't install a GTX345R to replace my GTX335R because the GTX345R is not certified for this aircraft, and there's no software yet available for an NXi DA62 that integrates with the GTX345R. (Back in 2017 the Austrians who then held the DA62 Type Certificate didn't care about ADS-B IN, since it's not as important outside the US.) I've been (im)patiently waiting for Diamond/Garmin to provide the certification and software for a GTX345R for my aircraft -- that I paid extra for 2 and a half years ago! Meanwhile I (and other newer DA62 G1000 NXi owners) have been forced to use a Stratus box and iPad running Foreflight to get ADS-B IN weather and traffic. :scream:
And this on a $1.4M airplane, not an $800K SR22.

I met yesterday with a B737 Captain, line check captain, CFII, MEI, ATP, 16,000hrs, etc. who wanted to know more about my humble DA40NG because he's looking to get back into GA as he nears retirement. He really likes the DA62, but was put off just by the price tag. I was empathetic and didn't even tell him about the software nightmare. But if he gets closer to a decision, I'm going to feel obligated to send him to these forums and refer him to a pilots who purchased DA62's in the last two years.

Diamond, are you listening? You can't treat your flagship product customers this way and expect to be successful. And if the flagship is a failure, it trickles down...
So, Diamond’s behavior hasn’t deviated really since it’s inception and you think you’re going to change it with a few signatures and a disgruntled post. You really haven’t learned anything, have you.
The only difference is that now people are more online, more active on social networks and bad publicity can do more damage than in the past. There's much more information available and prospects will do more research before buying. While DA42 doesn't have much competition in training arena (I guess that majority is owned by schools), DA40 and DA62 are mainly owned by private owners. If these prospects turn towards competition because of bad experience of current owners with DAI, I hope DAI will start thinking about their attitude. If I was DA62 prospective buyer, I would never go for it - for $1.x mil there are many better options even (or especially) if you take into account TCO.
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Colin
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Colin »

$1.3M is not a hurdle for the people I've bumped into at the airport. A guy that I took for a flight in my DA40 and has now been flying his own DA40 for six years just told me he's getting a DA62. Used. I mentioned the Phase I and II issues, so that he was clear-eyed. He said that he thinks it will retain its value and he'll sell it in a couple years. And buy what? A single-engine turbine like a TBM.

For me, the fuel burn in any of the other planes is a real problem. Even when I was looking at my DA42 people were pointing me to Barons. And when I have talked about the DA62 they say I should look at some of the Citations that are on the market, so much faster, pressurized cabin, etc. But the fuel burn. Man. I can picture a 40 gallon drum of gas and thinking of that vanishing in an hour is very sobering.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
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Boatguy
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Boatguy »

The Citation is about 135gph. From FlyRadius:
After reviewing some flight test data we have found that the Cessna Citation M2 fuel consumption is around 920 pounds per hour at 34,000 feet with speed at 401 knots.
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ememic99
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by ememic99 »

A bit OT but JetProp can be bought practically new for that money, burning some 30 gallons for 260 KTAS at FL260 with 3600 hours TBO.
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TwinStarScott
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by TwinStarScott »

Immediately after logging off DAN last night, AvWeb reported this news:

Mooney Shuts Down

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/moo ... 13%2C+2019

While impossible for outsiders to know this, it does make a person wonder if the management at Mooney wish they had of gone a different route with some of their avionics decisions. And to what extent, if any, the G1000 played in their demise.

Regardless, this news gives Diamond yet another opportunity to re-evaluate their entire operation from top to bottom. Which might include taking a hard look at all of their G1000 problems, while considering other options with a clean slate and an open mind.

Because after an honest evaluation of the situation, Diamond might conclude their G1000 experiment has largely been a failure. For one thing, every entity that becomes involved with their fleet is unhappy over the G1000. Beyond owners, this goes for flight schools, avionics shops, even some (or most?) of their own service centers.
So, Diamond’s behavior hasn’t deviated really since its inception and you think you’re going to change it with a few signatures and a disgruntled post. You really haven’t learned anything, have you.
Meaning owners should just sit on our hands and idly stand by as we collectively watch a slow-motion train wreck?

Personally, I’m very appreciative of all 162 owners that had the courage to take a stand, by trying to make a positive difference for these aircraft, that are near and dear to our hearts.

My gratitude also extends to the author and seven other signatories that signed the July 15th letter to CEO Scott McFadzean. It too, remains a unique example of teamwork by DAN members, that still may generate more favorable results - as we await further clarification and word out of the London factory.

And if DAN members remain largely unsatisfied after receiving this next update, we can always go back to the drawing board - rather than simply give up and sell our airplanes.
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jast
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by jast »

ememic99 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 pm A bit OT but JetProp can be bought practically new for that money, burning some 30 gallons for 260 KTAS at FL260 with 3600 hours TBO.
I just bought a DA62 with two co-owners. And despite all the software chaos I believe it was the right choice. However I am concerned because I want Diamond to be largely successful so that they can provide better service and more regular updates.

We did consider many other options up to used small jets. At least in Europe and especially in Germany the distances of our average flights are not large enough to go to high flight levels and even more problematic is the traffic congestion. ATC is limiting private AC to go high. So eventually you will burn twice the fuel per mile at FL1xx and have all the disadvantages in complexity, type rating, repairs, insurances, etc. A DA62 is still a relatively simple aircraft which you can also charter to others.

We also did consider the Cirrus SR22T, but again the „old“, finicky Avgas turbo engine and the subpar basic flying capabilities in terms of stalls/turns plus the real second engine vs parachute pushed us to a DA62.
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ememic99
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by ememic99 »

jast wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:15 am
ememic99 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 pm A bit OT but JetProp can be bought practically new for that money, burning some 30 gallons for 260 KTAS at FL260 with 3600 hours TBO.
I just bought a DA62 with two co-owners. And despite all the software chaos I believe it was the right choice. However I am concerned because I want Diamond to be largely successful so that they can provide better service and more regular updates.

We did consider many other options up to used small jets. At least in Europe and especially in Germany the distances of our average flights are not large enough to go to high flight levels and even more problematic is the traffic congestion. ATC is limiting private AC to go high. So eventually you will burn twice the fuel per mile at FL1xx and have all the disadvantages in complexity, type rating, repairs, insurances, etc. A DA62 is still a relatively simple aircraft which you can also charter to others.

We also did consider the Cirrus SR22T, but again the „old“, finicky Avgas turbo engine and the subpar basic flying capabilities in terms of stalls/turns plus the real second engine vs parachute pushed us to a DA62.
I understand that mission is the first reason when choosing the aircraft and then you analize how it fits to your budget and then you make some compromises if you have to. And touring across Europe is mainly flying in mid-FLs - anything below FL140 means you're in the weather on the average day, so my usual cruise altitude is FL160. Getting anything up to FL280 is not hard because the majority of traffic flies higher - you share the space with relatively small fleet of Dash and ATR aircrafts.

The consumption of 13 GPH at FL160 (75% load, DA42 with CD-155) gives me on average 175 KTAS (measured on more than 50 flights, each lasted over an hour). I guess DA62 can do a bit faster - my assumption is 180 KTAS at FL160 with 75% load and 15 GPH. So we're talking about 12 (DA62) or 13.5 (DA42) NM per gallon (8.3 gallons per 100 NM and 7.4 gallons per 100 NM, respectively). JetProp burns 32 GPH flying 260 KTAS at FL260 which gives 8.1 NM per galon (12.3 gallons per 100 NM). You can get a bit better result flying DA62 higher at FL200 - 75% load gives you 188 KTAS with same consumption and you get 12.5 NM per gallon (7.9 gallons per 100 NM) - but that's all in the same ballpark. So the difference is not so huge as it would be the first impression, especially if you take into account TBO, less time in the air and maintenance cost. And all calculations usually show that the fuel (especially JetA1) is by far cheapest thing that we spend while flying.

Using the above numbers you get a bit over 1000 NM to zero fuel for DA42 (76 USG) and DA62 (86 USG) while with JetProp you get over 1200 NM (151 USG full tanks).

I know we can discuss the load, the mission, all other costs but the things are never simple :) and I did a lot of OT with this post, spoiling very interesting topic.
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Steve
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Steve »

TwinStarScott wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:18 am Immediately after logging off DAN last night, AvWeb reported this news:

Mooney Shuts Down

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/moo ... 13%2C+2019
I don't really think that the Mooney shutdown can be attributed to this issue. They have been in bankruptcy court at least a half dozen times in the past 20 years. They always seem to reopen for business under new management, and produce some new airframes. Having said that, the string of financial crises doesn't do much to instill consumer confidence...

Steve

PS: I really like Mooneys, and have a couple of hundred hours in the M20J model. If they weren't so damn expensive, I would have considered buying one back in 2001, when I got my DA40...
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Boatguy »

I probably have some responsibility for getting this thread off track, and it has been interesting. The core issue remains that Garmin has issued a "safety of flight" service bulletin that can only be addressed for NXi owners by Diamond issuing a sw update.

Will they do it?

Will they incorporate some of the Missing Features into the update?
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