Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

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Boatguy
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Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Boatguy »

Those of us with GTX345R ADSB-In have marveled at all the new airplanes that have joined us as more planes added ADSB-Out. Seeing all that traffic has been a great feature and definitely identifies threats before I see them visually out the canopy.

Today Garmin issued a Service Bulletin for the GTX345R to correct a problem where it may not show all traffic if there are more than 200 in range. I believe this refers to the unit receiving more than 200 targets, not 200 targets within the range currently displayed on the MFD. This can certainly be the case in any major metro area as can be verified with ADSB Exchange or FlightRadar24.

If you have an STC'd version of the GTX345R you'll want this update.

However, my avionics shop advises me that they cannot install the update into my certified G1000NXi unless it comes from Diamond. DAI's response to our G1000 petition was very vague on future software updates, but did say:

issues impacting the safety of flight are a different consideration entirely, and Garmin and Diamond will always ensure our owners have solutions to address these.

Missing targets seems to me like a "safety of flight" issue. Does that mean we should expect a software upgrade coming shortly from DAI?

Would it be too much to ask them to also enable some of the "Missing Features"? Surely 3D audio can't be that tough to certify.
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by pietromarx »

This firmware is for the GTX-345R and has nothing to do with the G1000 or anything else it is connected to. Your shop should be able to do the update if they have access to Garmin's dealer support network.
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by TwinStarScott »

Having spoken numerous times with this same Northern California based company, Russ is consulting with a first rate avionics shop. As since this is a major safety of flight issue, please keep us posted.

Thanks to Boatguy for bringing this important matter to our attention.

What's that old saying? Something like:
"one midair can ruin your whole day"
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by CFIDave »

pietromarx wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:54 am This firmware is for the GTX-345R and has nothing to do with the G1000 or anything else it is connected to. Your shop should be able to do the update if they have access to Garmin's dealer support network.
You are correct if you have an older Legacy G1000 DA40/DA42/DA62 with a retrofitted GTX345R -- a Garmin shop can connect their laptop directly to the GTX345R and update its software. There shouldn't be any need to mess with the older G1000 software that was previously "patched" to work with the GTX345R.

But Russ' new DA40NG was delivered with the GTX345R fully integrated with its G1000 NXi flight deck -- the GTX345R was not added later. The ONLY way to update its GTX345R software (like other G1000 NXi LRUs) is via use of a G1000 NXi Software Install SDCard. And this requires Diamond/Garmin to issue a new G1000 NXi software update for the DA40NG.

So Russ is right to be concerned about the lack of software updates for his G1000 NXi potentially affecting safety of flight. Even though his plane currently has the newest G1000 NXi Phase II hardware and software, it's up to Diamond to provide updates going forward.
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by pietromarx »

CFIDave wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:58 pm But Russ' new DA40NG was delivered with the GTX345R fully integrated with its G1000 NXi flight deck -- the GTX345R was not added later. The ONLY way to update its GTX345R software (like other G1000 NXi LRUs) is via use of a G1000 NXi Software Install SDCard. And this requires Diamond/Garmin to issue a new G1000 NXi software update for the DA40NG.
Does anyone have a block and wiring diagram for this particular installation? It may have been co-installed, but should still be a separate box (LRU, see below) in the back that has interfaces to the GIAs, etc.

While software updates for the G1000s (and NXis) are composed of multiple firmware updates bundled together, the GTX-345R remains a separate unit that should be addressable outside of the remainder of the system. It has to interface with a wide variety of other units, after all, and the SB is generic.

I'm not aware of any transponders which would be "integrated" into the rest of the system other than through interfaces as it would be against the basic theory of line-replaceable units (LRUs) making up an integrated system. Should the NXi have the transponder be "integrated" then this is a design fail ... :)
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by CFIDave »

pietromarx wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:28 amI'm not aware of any transponders which would be "integrated" into the rest of the system other than through interfaces as it would be against the basic theory of line-replaceable units (LRUs) making up an integrated system. Should the NXi have the transponder be "integrated" then this is a design fail ... :)
You're thinking logically -- which is not how the FAA (and other certification authorities) operate. :roll:

Hardware-wise, the GTX345R is wired the pretty much the same regardless of whether it's an add-on to a Legacy G1000 vs. installed in a new aircraft with G1000 NXi.

But the certification basis is totally different: When added to a Legacy G1000, Garmin's GTX345 Approved Model List (AML) includes the DA40/DA42/DA62. This is what permits a Garmin tech to install and configure the GTX345R software separately using a laptop. (They also had to "patch" the old Legacy G1000 software so that it would support GTX345R ADS-B IN features like weather and traffic to appear on the MFD.)

But when included as part of a certified G1000 NXi installation (e.g., Russ' DA40NG), the GTX345 software must be configured or updated via an SDCard along with all the other G1000 NXi LRUs. In this case GTX345R software can't come from a laptop cable; it must be installed off of an SDCard.

I've been struggling with this difference with my DA62: For more than 2 years it's been possible to update an older 2016 Legacy G1000 DA62 by replacing its original GTX33 transponder with a GTX345R to add ADS-B OUT and IN. That's because the Legacy G1000 version of the DA62 is listed on Garmin's AML for the GTX345R.

But for my newer 2017 G1000 NXi DA62, I still can't install a GTX345R to replace my GTX335R because the GTX345R is not certified for this aircraft, and there's no software yet available for an NXi DA62 that integrates with the GTX345R. (Back in 2017 the Austrians who then held the DA62 Type Certificate didn't care about ADS-B IN, since it's not as important outside the US.) I've been (im)patiently waiting for Diamond/Garmin to provide the certification and software for a GTX345R for my aircraft -- that I paid extra for 2 and a half years ago! Meanwhile I (and other newer DA62 G1000 NXi owners) have been forced to use a Stratus box and iPad running Foreflight to get ADS-B IN weather and traffic. :scream:
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by pietromarx »

Two things:

1. Fail. Ouch. OMFG. Sorry. And all of the rest of the Kubler-Ross stages of grief.

2. There was no touch to the G1000 for the -345R installation. It emulates a GDL-90 which was already supported. Has its own issues, but at least it works. Mostly.
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Chris B »

CFIDave wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:54 amHardware-wise, the GTX345R is wired the pretty much the same regardless of whether it's an add-on to a Legacy G1000 vs. installed in a new aircraft with G1000 NXi.

But the certification basis is totally different: When added to a Legacy G1000, Garmin's GTX345 Approved Model List (AML) includes the DA40/DA42/DA62. This is what permits a Garmin tech to install and configure the GTX345R software separately using a laptop.

But when included as part of a certified G1000 NXi installation (e.g., Russ' DA40NG), the GTX345 software must be configured or updated via an SDCard along with all the other G1000 NXi LRUs. In this case GTX345R software can't come from a laptop cable; it must be installed off of an SDCard.
... that must be provided by the type certificate holder (in this case Diamond).

Which is *completely* insane, but the logical result of tying avionics to the type certificate.

Someday (soon?) prospective new airplane owners are going to understand this situation and stop buying aircraft with integrated avionics. Except possibly from Cirrus, which has the sales volume and support commitment for regular SW updates.
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by Boatguy »

CFIDave wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:54 am But for my newer 2017 G1000 NXi DA62, I still can't install a GTX345R to replace my GTX335R because the GTX345R is not certified for this aircraft, and there's no software yet available for an NXi DA62 that integrates with the GTX345R. (Back in 2017 the Austrians who then held the DA62 Type Certificate didn't care about ADS-B IN, since it's not as important outside the US.) I've been (im)patiently waiting for Diamond/Garmin to provide the certification and software for a GTX345R for my aircraft -- that I paid extra for 2 and a half years ago! Meanwhile I (and other newer DA62 G1000 NXi owners) have been forced to use a Stratus box and iPad running Foreflight to get ADS-B IN weather and traffic. :scream:
And this on a $1.4M airplane, not an $800K SR22.

I met yesterday with a B737 Captain, line check captain, CFII, MEI, ATP, 16,000hrs, etc. who wanted to know more about my humble DA40NG because he's looking to get back into GA as he nears retirement. He really likes the DA62, but was put off just by the price tag. I was empathetic and didn't even tell him about the software nightmare. But if he gets closer to a decision, I'm going to feel obligated to send him to these forums and refer him to a pilots who purchased DA62's in the last two years.

Diamond, are you listening? You can't treat your flagship product customers this way and expect to be successful. And if the flagship is a failure, it trickles down...
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Re: Garmin GTX345R needs sw upgrade?

Post by TwinStarScott »

What Chris B wrote above is spot on. So much so, that I feel compelled to quote his entire post:
... that must be provided by the type certificate holder (in this case Diamond).

Which is *completely* insane, but the logical result of tying avionics to the type certificate.

Someday (soon?) prospective new airplane owners are going to understand this situation and stop buying aircraft with integrated avionics. Except possibly from Cirrus, which has the sales volume and support commitment for regular SW updates.
Yet, all the posts today alone on this thread are stunning, once again proving "truth is stranger than fiction".

So, will all avionics issues endlessly swirling around the G1000 fleet and specifically the DA62, why wouldn't DAI follow in the footsteps of Southwest Airlines, and do the equivalent of initiating discussions with Airbus? Which would help to show Diamond, at long last, is going to start down a path that puts an end to this OEM madness. As this seemingly overly cozy relationship with Garmin needed to change yesterday, and ironically for DAI’s own survival.

Certainly, it’s not hard to imagine potential buyers, like the one Russ just mentioned, would be further enticed to buy a Diamond if there was more than one avionics manufacturer / package to select from. With both avionics suites being well managed, that would naturally include an ongoing commitment to current software updates - based upon newly available features and not limited strictly to “safety of flight” matters.
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