DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

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TimS
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by TimS »

pietromarx wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 am
TimS wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:05 pm
1. Chute was required due to one of the founders having had a midair collision. Nothing to do with how it flies. The ELOS was a cost saving measure.
The chute allowed Cirrus to avoid spin-testing for the FAR 23 certification. Those who reportedly have tried spinning a Cirrus said it wasn't benign. This goes to the heart of how it flies.

The plane may be nice, but the chute should have been additive safety, not a shortcut in providing safety.
The problem with spins in Cirrus based on the pilots and engineers who did the data for a limited set to EASA was not the chute.
It was the fact that spin prevention was a major portion of the design goals as mandated by the FAA (the FAA had started to move away from spin recovery to spin prevention). The passive techniques which help prevent spins actually make it harder to recover and make the entry more spectacular. e.g. the split wing incidences between inner/outer panels.
Note this info is from long time Cirrus employees; who knew the engineers who designed the SR plane.

Tim
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Antoine »

Colin wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
I am not a fan of the spring-loaded controls. I want to feel the air a little more, but I admit that I am not the best pilot and perhaps feeling my way around the sky is not the best long-range plan.
Colin, you should be in politics. I vote for you! :D
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Derek »

I’m not sure I buy that the Cirrus was designed to prevent spins and that’s why it has bad spin characteristics. Stall spin is one of the leading causes of death in a Cirrus. It is also easier to accidentally spin a Cirrus with catastrophic results than most other GA aircraft. To help prevent this problem they now have a lot of training that focuses on flying the plane exactly to its mandated airspeed and bank numbers - not always doable 100% of the time for a weekend warrior who got overloaded or distracted. Combine that with a primary flight control (spring loaded side stick) that offers little or no feedback and the results in terms of unexpected crashes unfortunately speak for themselves. Stall spin is not an issue with Diamonds. They are harder to put into a spin, the spin is more gentle and they are quicker/easier to recover. You have to force it to spin, it gives plenty of warning feedback, and it will actively help you recover with lots of input feel.

New pilots and pilots who want to minimize their chances of unexpectedly expiring should fly Diamonds or Cessnas. I wish this wasn’t true as I’d like to upgrade to a fast 6 seater but the accident stat deltas are too unreasonable imo.
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Colin »

Does anyone know the history or specifics of the spring-loaded side-yoke? If you remove the springs is the auto-pilot under powered? Has anyone tried that?
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Don
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Don »

No one has mentioned the fun factor. Over the years, in the aviation media, many of the aircraft reviewers say something like, "The DA-40 is the most fun aircraft they have ever flown".
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Steve »

Don wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:21 pm
No one has mentioned the fun factor. Over the years, in the aviation media, many of the aircraft reviewers say something like, "The DA-40 is the most fun aircraft they have ever flown".
No Don, that was me! :D
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by mbitran »

Thank you so much for all the informative replies! I flew a Cirrus SR20 again this week (new G6). As many have mentioned here - it is an autopilot airplane. It is difficult to trim and not a lot of fun (in my opinion) to hand fly given the lack of feedback and manner in which they designed the side stick. I think this is consistent with the Cirrus design and mission of making it a people carrier - and it does a great job at that. Otherwise the interior and technology is amazing.

I hope to have a chance to demo fly a DA40 this week. If anyone lives around the Boston area and is willing to demo fly their plane with me - I'd be more than happy to pay for the time and expenses!

The safety and flight dynamics of the DA40 (from what I have read) same phenomenal. My only concern right now is ongoing service.

If I bought a new one I would consider putting it in DiamondShare. Does anyone have experience with that program?

Has Diamond been responsive to all of the customer concerns? It seems unbelievable to me that a company that is in the business of selling airplanes would allow such poor customer service to damage their reputation and product saleability.

Thanks again for the wisdom!
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by CBeak »

Don wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:21 pm
No one has mentioned the fun factor. Over the years, in the aviation media, many of the aircraft reviewers say something like, "The DA-40 is the most fun aircraft they have ever flown".
There is that😀. I suppose it’s a combination of things. But it’s a fun little airplane, without being overwhelming. Easy to handle, very responsive, and you can actually FEEL it flying. I had to learn to adjust throttle and propeller for the first time in my DA40, but I kind of liken it to driving a stick shift. The DA40 is a lot like a Honda S2000 I used to own. Fun and sporty, well engineered, pretty economical and just a lot of fun to drive.
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by Thomas »

All true about the DA40 fun factor … hand it is flying fun, I was coming from gliders, Diamonds roots came from a (motor) glider, it kept the control sensitive well-balanced controls. On the shadow side is of course the long wingspan, in the bumpy air at lower altitude … and when bringing it into the hangar :)
The Cirrus is different … it’s a stable IFR platform, a luxury traveller, but you should fly it according to procedures like bigger planes - Of course the DA40 is all that as well a bit … but with the pros of the first sentence.
I never give up hope that Diamond is in the learning curve in improving customer service an after sales service.
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Re: DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

Post by TimS »

Derek,

You may want to hang out in COPA and talk to actual Cirrus long time employees some :)
You can fly a Cirrus much deeper into a stall than a Diamond and maintain control. But when it lets go; it is vicious and fast. A Diamond on the other hand is much more benign on the stall; and with the high aspect wings has a much smaller area of reverse command. All of which contribute to wonderful airplane handling and feeling with gentle stall characteristics of any plane with light wing loading. Cirrus has 500lbs greater MTOW on only 2 sqr more feet of wing loading. The result, Cirrus is a travel plane, super stable as an IR platform, low aspect wings means it handles winds and turbulence much better.

Here is some slightly dated information on SR20 explaining the effect of the split wings from AOPA: https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-an ... irrus-sr20

No idea where you get the idea that stall/spin is a major contributor to Cirrus accidents.

Lastly, in terms of comparison to six seat planes like the Bo, Cirrus is no different. You want to be safe in a Mooney or a Bonanza? You fly a set profile. Same thing in Cirrus.

Really only slow draggy planes; such a C172/182 are really forgiving of the weekend warrior who is not paying attention to profile. The first time I was in a Diamond DA-40 (one of only a few flights in one); the pilot owner was showing me slow flight and stalled the plane to the point of a wing drop. He tried to pick the wing ailerons instead of rudder and we were lucky we did not enter a spin (I hit the stick forward to unload the wing as /i was taught).

Mbitran,

Cirrus is a travel plane. The trim does take some practice to get used too. You also learn to get the feel of the plane from the seat of your pants instead of your hand. It really is a different way to fly. At the end of the day, you want to punch holes in the sky? Get a DA-40 or some other fun plane to fly. If you want to go low and slow? Get a Cessna 172/182. If you want to travel? Get a Bonanza or a Cirrus. If you want efficiency? Go for Mooney.

Every plane is a compromise, the goal is to find a plane which has the right set of compromises for you.

Also, where in Boston? I am based out of 6B6 (but live closer to KBED).

Tim
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