G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

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TimS
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by TimS »

I know KA G1000 flight deck was installed by Garmin owned by STC. So it would make sense they would complete the STC to upgrade since they own it.

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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by yl472401 »

pietromarx wrote:
ememic99 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:14 pm
The problem with upgrading legacy G1000 to G1000 NXi is that Diamond doesn't want to offer it. The reason behind it I can only guess but I believe it's avoiding competing upgraded used aircrafts with factory new ones.
I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
I could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RGImage.


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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Boatguy »

yl472401 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 pm
pietromarx wrote:
ememic99 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:14 pm
The problem with upgrading legacy G1000 to G1000 NXi is that Diamond doesn't want to offer it. The reason behind it I can only guess but I believe it's avoiding competing upgraded used aircrafts with factory new ones.
I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
I could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RGImage.
I think it's far less nefarious and you should be angry with Garmin, not Diamond. It's a simple issue of economics. Who wants to spend money certifying a solution? There is nothing in it for Diamond other than customer goodwill. Goodwill is good and could/should lead to positive referrals to Diamond for new planes; but it's soft, especially when Diamond is struggling to meet the demand it already has. However, there is cash in it Garmin. So who will spend money to get the configuration certified? At the moment it would appear nobody, which means there is not enough money in it to attract Garmin after market interest. There simply aren't enough potential G1000NXi buyers to justify the certification expense.

However, if that configuration is already certified (e.g., DA40-180) because it was a production configuration in the past, or present, then certification is not an issue and I think it's a simple manner of asking your Garmin dealer to perform the work.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by ememic99 »

Boatguy wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:55 pm
yl472401 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 pm
pietromarx wrote:
I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
I could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RGImage.
I think it's far less nefarious and you should be angry with Garmin, not Diamond. It's a simple issue of economics. Who wants to spend money certifying a solution? There is nothing in it for Diamond other than customer goodwill. Goodwill is good and could/should lead to positive referrals to Diamond for new planes; but it's soft, especially when Diamond is struggling to meet the demand it already has. However, there is cash in it Garmin. So who will spend money to get the configuration certified? At the moment it would appear nobody, which means there is not enough money in it to attract Garmin after market interest. There simply aren't enough potential G1000NXi buyers to justify the certification expense.

However, if that configuration is already certified (e.g., DA40-180) because it was a production configuration in the past, or present, then certification is not an issue and I think it's a simple manner of asking your Garmin dealer to perform the work.
Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Boatguy »

ememic99 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:23 pm
Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.
You're suggesting that Garmin wants to offer the upgrade but DAI is preventing them from doing so?
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by ememic99 »

Boatguy wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:26 pm
ememic99 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:23 pm
Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.
You're suggesting that Garmin wants to offer the upgrade but DAI is preventing them from doing so?
Not that I know but this is the legal framework that Garmin uses to put the sole blame on DAI. While DAI gives excuses that Garmin doesn’t have sufficient resources and that they have to prioritize development requests sent towards Garmin and obviously new aircrafts have the advantage.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dant »

Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?

This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by pietromarx »

dant wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:55 am
Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?

This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
That is the core issue.

Other manufacturers have traditionally allowed many upgrade paths. In this case, Diamond has effectively and slowly orphaned DA-40-180s, their most popular product, by not providing transparent and reliable upgrade paths. While we assume this is only applicable to G1000s, the fact remains that the same situation has been set up for the NXi airplanes, too. The ICs and support components in the electronics are continually "end-of-lifed" and, like an Apple II or an original IBM PC, the products simply stop existing over time.

Diamond needs to address this issue relatively soon as the components will start failing in greater numbers, etc.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by TimS »

dant wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:55 am
Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?

This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
No, Garmin was not the first. neither was Avidyne. However, the first systems were on much larger more expensive planes; think multi million dollar business planes and airliners. The majority of these plane owners are used to avionics upgrades that run a quarter million or more, and are only good for fifteen years. Most of the aircraft only get one or two upgrades before they have been exported or sent to the junk yard; mostly due to noise restrictions.
We are only now still at the leading edge of 30 year old SETPs which need new avionics, and the upgrades are being done at a quarter mill each, but the plane is worth a million. So the math is a lot easier for the owner to swallow.

For use piston pounders, the flight deck upgrade of a 100K in many cases is a much more significant portion of the value of the plane, if not more than the value of the plane. It makes it a lot harder to justify for the owner when it does not fundamentally increase the airplane capabilities. So, that means fewer owners pursue it, and than means fewer buyers which means each one must be priced higher which means fewer will buy it... it becomes a self vicious circle.

I watched Avidyne and others try and break the circle. So far, none have been successful; and I doubt any will be.

Tim
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dant »

Guess we need another one of those aviation-wide STCs for in-place swaps, like G100UL :)

I think Garmin needs to be on this if they care at all about the sub 700k aircraft market (which they may not). If it becomes clear that airplanes are effectively "time between replacement" when they have integrated flight decks, then people will stop buying them.

I'm not 100% sure how integrated an 'integrated flight deck" is. Is this something where people can just swap out for piecemeal glass avionics the way that the steam gauge folks have?
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