Gaming the ATC route computer
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- Boatguy
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Gaming the ATC route computer
Yesterday I flew from my home airport, Petaluma O69, to Watsonville (KWVI) to take some food to a friend’s sick wife, and then home again. Both departure and destination are non towered; clearances from O69 are by calling Oakland Center on the phone, or take off in VMC and pick up in the air.
No matter what I filed (via Foreflight), or how far east I tried to force the route (including entirely east of the SFO Bravo), the ATC computer kept giving me PYE V27 SHOEY. This is a route which is a good 10-15 miles offshore over the ocean. I’m in a piston single, I don’t do open water. I’m also a sailor and I know that coast well. I don’t want to think about putting a plane down out there or even gliding to the shore and dumping it in the surf (rather than the homes). I filed T257 which is mostly along the shore and got the same route. I even filed T257 at 11,000’, over the top of the Bravo, and got the same PYE V27 SHOEY route. I considered my options:
a) Call from the ground and try to negotiate a better route with center.
b) Pickup the expected route in the air and try to negotiate a better route in the air
- problematic because my departure is about 7-10min away from entering the Bravo. Not much time with a busy center controller handling a bunch of commercial flights into SFO.
c) Pick a more easterly location which would force the route to the east, then “divert” in the air.
I picked c) and filed to E16 (San Martin), got SGD SUNOL and picked it up in the air. ATC ignored the clearance and sent me on vectors out towards KTCY. This wasn’t optimal, but it did keep me over land. Then I “diverted” to KWVI. They asked why and I told them the weather had improved (it had gone from OVC 006 to clear).
It all worked out and I got a route in the air to KWVI, but it seems like it was too difficult for everyone involved. A busy Norcal controller basically had to give me a pop-up clearance, etc. I had to do something similar on the return, but I’ll spare the details.
I’m just not flying 10-15 miles offshore of a formidable Pacific coast in a piston single. So what’s a pilot to do when the ATC computer insists on a route which is not acceptable?
No matter what I filed (via Foreflight), or how far east I tried to force the route (including entirely east of the SFO Bravo), the ATC computer kept giving me PYE V27 SHOEY. This is a route which is a good 10-15 miles offshore over the ocean. I’m in a piston single, I don’t do open water. I’m also a sailor and I know that coast well. I don’t want to think about putting a plane down out there or even gliding to the shore and dumping it in the surf (rather than the homes). I filed T257 which is mostly along the shore and got the same route. I even filed T257 at 11,000’, over the top of the Bravo, and got the same PYE V27 SHOEY route. I considered my options:
a) Call from the ground and try to negotiate a better route with center.
b) Pickup the expected route in the air and try to negotiate a better route in the air
- problematic because my departure is about 7-10min away from entering the Bravo. Not much time with a busy center controller handling a bunch of commercial flights into SFO.
c) Pick a more easterly location which would force the route to the east, then “divert” in the air.
I picked c) and filed to E16 (San Martin), got SGD SUNOL and picked it up in the air. ATC ignored the clearance and sent me on vectors out towards KTCY. This wasn’t optimal, but it did keep me over land. Then I “diverted” to KWVI. They asked why and I told them the weather had improved (it had gone from OVC 006 to clear).
It all worked out and I got a route in the air to KWVI, but it seems like it was too difficult for everyone involved. A busy Norcal controller basically had to give me a pop-up clearance, etc. I had to do something similar on the return, but I’ll spare the details.
I’m just not flying 10-15 miles offshore of a formidable Pacific coast in a piston single. So what’s a pilot to do when the ATC computer insists on a route which is not acceptable?
- AndrewM
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
Russ, I had a situation a little while ago where the ATC assigned a route just did not work, and actually could not be loaded due to an error in their routing. The controller understood, and agreed with me about the issue, and kept trying to speak to someone to "force" a new (and logical) routing, that actually worked. After about 35 mins I was assigned the routing I asked for, but geez was it a hassle for everyone. If was an IFR day so the option of just running with it and then re-negotiating along the way just did not seem sensible.
So, I think sometimes it just is what it is, however, is there any option to give the local Center a call and ask for their direct advice on the issue? I have never done a tour of a tower, however apparently the folks are friendly and happy to take questions and so on, so just try and make a phone call and ask them directly?
So, I think sometimes it just is what it is, however, is there any option to give the local Center a call and ask for their direct advice on the issue? I have never done a tour of a tower, however apparently the folks are friendly and happy to take questions and so on, so just try and make a phone call and ask them directly?
- chili4way
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
I'd pick "A" in this case. I'd file what I want to fly and ignore the "expected route" that ForeFlight reports back from the ATC computer, especially if it isn't acceptable. Then I'd call up from the ground to pick up my clearance and resolve the issue prior to takeoff.
Typically the person who answers the phone has to "talk to the controller" prior to giving you the clearance, so that's the best time to explain your filed routing. They always ask "which departure runway" and "when will you be ready to depart" so tell them that, too.
I don't make the call to pick up my clearance until my runup is completed and I'm ready to go. I program my filed plan into the G1000 prior to calling but am prepared to take a couple of extra minutes to revise it if I get something different. The clearance void time is usually sufficient for getting that done, especially with the FS510 and Foreflight.
Typically the person who answers the phone has to "talk to the controller" prior to giving you the clearance, so that's the best time to explain your filed routing. They always ask "which departure runway" and "when will you be ready to depart" so tell them that, too.
I don't make the call to pick up my clearance until my runup is completed and I'm ready to go. I program my filed plan into the G1000 prior to calling but am prepared to take a couple of extra minutes to revise it if I get something different. The clearance void time is usually sufficient for getting that done, especially with the FS510 and Foreflight.
- CFIDave
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
When you get a clearance that you can't fly (like a single-engine plane way out over the water), you need to remember to say "unable" -- either to the controller on the radio who's giving you your clearance, or to a controller over the phone (Clearance Delivery phone numbers are now available at most non-towered airports). Then explain WHY. They'll give you something different.
Back when I had my DA40 I was flying IFR from the Washington, DC area towards Boston and got a clearance that took me on the airways V139-V268-V308 that go way out over the ocean between Atlantic City, NJ to the Hamptons out on Long Island -- about 50 miles offshore to bypass the entire NYC terminal area. After decoding the clearance (lots of waypoints and Victor airways), I called the controller back over the phone and explained why my single-engine plane wasn't equipped to fly that route. He understood, then "penalized" me by having me fly an even longer route all the way to the northwest around the NYC metro area via Scranton, PA. But we stayed over land. (BTW, in my twin Diamond I later flew the V139-268-308 route out over the Atlantic each way to get to Martha's Vineyard.)
Back when I had my DA40 I was flying IFR from the Washington, DC area towards Boston and got a clearance that took me on the airways V139-V268-V308 that go way out over the ocean between Atlantic City, NJ to the Hamptons out on Long Island -- about 50 miles offshore to bypass the entire NYC terminal area. After decoding the clearance (lots of waypoints and Victor airways), I called the controller back over the phone and explained why my single-engine plane wasn't equipped to fly that route. He understood, then "penalized" me by having me fly an even longer route all the way to the northwest around the NYC metro area via Scranton, PA. But we stayed over land. (BTW, in my twin Diamond I later flew the V139-268-308 route out over the Atlantic each way to get to Martha's Vineyard.)
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- rdrobson
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
I've also called for my clearance before starting the engines and told them I would call back when I was ready to depart and then they would issue the void time. It's a way to avoid feeling rushed in this situation.chili4way wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:42 pm I don't make the call to pick up my clearance until my runup is completed and I'm ready to go. I program my filed plan into the G1000 prior to calling but am prepared to take a couple of extra minutes to revise it if I get something different. The clearance void time is usually sufficient for getting that done, especially with the FS510 and Foreflight.
- Boatguy
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
I had an email exchange with a NORCAL controller and he suggested calling the center while on the ground.
At towered airports he said to just tell the tower controller "unable" as Dave suggests, explain why and ask them to go back to center.
At towered airports he said to just tell the tower controller "unable" as Dave suggests, explain why and ask them to go back to center.
- Charles K
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
I take the assigned clearance and then ask to be routed over land or very close to land once in the air. This happens a lot going IFR from KMRY back to my home KCCR. I just say - single engine - too far over water for safety.
Charles
KCCR Based
N5WU - 2004 G1000 DA40 40.400, GTX345R ADS-B, WAAS Upgraded in 2021 via Diamond Upgrade Program
IFR and ME Rated - Advanced Ground Instructor Rated
KCCR Based
N5WU - 2004 G1000 DA40 40.400, GTX345R ADS-B, WAAS Upgraded in 2021 via Diamond Upgrade Program
IFR and ME Rated - Advanced Ground Instructor Rated
- Colin
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Re: Gaming the ATC route computer
I put things in the comment line, too. So I have had "No swimmers on board" and "Scared of ice." They are terse so they fit on the strip and the controllers seem to appreciate them. One was "First family flight coast to coast" and I got a lot of hellos.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)