Another safe year for Diamonds

The ramblings of our community of aviators.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Rich »

Soareyes wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:58 pm
The Cirrus stall is benign as long as you are coordinated. Even a skidding stall is easily recoverable but beware of the slipping (base to final overshoot) stall. Knowing where the dragon lives helps to avoid it.
The terminologies are reversed in your post. The overshoot results in a tendency to push rudder on the inside of the turn, resulting in a skid. But you are correct in that this is the more dangerous setup. Whatever the details it's a rare year without several fatal stall-spins across Cirrus models.
Last edited by Rich on Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
CFIDave
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N333GX
Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 1473 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by CFIDave »

Presumably the reason Cirrus felt compelled to include all of the add-on electronic safety features is because for many years Cirrus' safety record was quantitatively worse than GA industry averages. Even with their more recent "pull early and pull often" training emphasis on using the parachute, it is still much worse than for Diamonds. The pilot recovered in the video because of Diamond's "built-in" docile low-speed handling characteristics.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Boatguy »

CFIDave wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:58 pm Presumably the reason Cirrus felt compelled to include all of the add-on electronic safety features is because for many years Cirrus' safety record was quantitatively worse than GA industry averages. Even with their more recent "pull early and pull often" training emphasis on using the parachute, it is still much worse than for Diamonds. The pilot recovered in the video because of Diamond's "built-in" docile low-speed handling characteristics.
The speculation about Cirrus may be true. However, what's disturbing is that the DA42/62 already has the rudder servo / yaw damper. The only thing stopping Diamond from offering the same Garmin features is certification of the software and probably some added cost from Garmin which can always be passed to the buyer by making the features an option. I doubt many Diamond buyers would conclude that "I'm buying a safer airframe, I don't need those features".
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Boatguy »

VickersPilot wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:38 pm
AndrewM wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:09 pm Check out this video... for those of us thinking about moving from a DA40 to Cirrus SRxx or potentially a DA42/62, not so sure a Cirrus would have been so forgiving in this situation:

In this scenario, a post 2010 Cirrus (with the GSM86 gearbox, I think) would actually have performed better. The Cirrus has more safety features enabled on the GFC700 implementation than Diamond, additional features such as:

*Low Speed Protection
*Over Speed Protection
*Emergency Decent
*Level Button
*Auto Level
*Auto Yaw Damper Activation / De-activation
*Angle of Attack

The reason Cirrus would have been safer is:

(1) Angle of Attack System - would have annunciated (voice callout, CAS message) the aircraft was too slow by reference to the AoA.
(2) Rudder is automatically engaged on the G6 Cirrus above 200ft and disengages automatically below 200ft - so the Cirrus would have been better co-ordinated (even if AP is off).
(3) Low Speed Protection - Diamond has only USP (Underspeed Protection) which is active only when the AP is engaged. The Cirrus GFC700 would have nudged the nose down, like a stick pusher (depending on how close he was to the ground..., there is some limit).
My understanding is that the AOA is not available from Cirrus unless the airplane also has FIKI.

From philip.greenspun.com - an owner's review of his Cirrus SR20:

"Once a pilot has gotten sloppy with airspeed, the plane is harder to keep level with rudders in a stall than a Cessna or Diamond; if in a deep uncoordinated stall, the Cirrus wants to drop a wing and go into a spin. "

"A pilot with 800 hours in the SR22 noted that in his experience it is not nearly as docile as the Cessna 172 and Piper Arrow that he had trained on. A CFI ("certificated flight instructor") who now flies the $3 million Pilatus PC-12 says "The Cirrus is a plane designed to go fast. You shouldn't be flying it slow. It is trickier to handle in a stall than a 172 or the Pilatus."

"Safety conclusion: The basic Cirrus is very safe if flown like a jet, with one eye on the airspeed indicator at all times. Piling on hundred of thousands of dollars in extra avionics won't make it substantially safer."
User avatar
VickersPilot
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:41 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N00TBC
Airports:
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by VickersPilot »

Yes, the Diamond wing has natural stability whereas the Cirrus wing has augmented stability. However, G1/G2 & early G3 Cirrus have neither.

I believe it is correct that you must order FIKI to get an AoA source (see more below). Avionics/aircraft improvements do absolutely make an aircraft safer - the challenge is people don't assess accidents at a granular (by aircraft serial number) but rather at a brand level. Three examples:

(1) Piper M-Series - radically different fatal accident statistics between Meggitt & Garmin equipped M-Class aircraft.
(2) Cirrus - very low (if any) incidence of icing fatalities in FIKI aircraft vs TKS.
(3) Cirrus - very low (if any) stall/spin accidents with ESP airframes AND the correct Garmin SW version: (there was one pre-LSP software with basic ESP)
http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/ ... 2-10R2.pdf

""ESP - Low Speed with Stall Warn Installation Option" can only be selected for serials that include the wiring provision that simulates an AOA input. Beginning with serials 20-2269, 22-4117, and 22T-0852, aircraft were equipped at the factory with this wiring provision. SB2X-22-08 adds the wiring provision to serials that were not factory-equipped. Therefore, any serial that includes the simulated AOA wiring provision is a candidate for the "ESP - Low Speed with Stall Warn Installation Option".

Another fun statistic for those who read NTSB accidents is to compare the number of fuel exhaustion Cirrus accidents BEFORE and AFTER the CIES guages were fully integrated into the G1000 MFD - (1) they work, (2) they annunciate in a clear CAS, (3) they are in the pilots natural field of view. Suddenly - fuel exhaustion accident stopped (where the pilot isn't on narcotics)

The equivalent for Diamond is the frequency of gear up landings. I suspect it will be statistically less now in new aircraft as the words are spoken clearly rather than just another beep.
User avatar
Soareyes
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:47 pm
First Name: Dan
Aircraft Type: DA42-VI
Aircraft Registration: N518R
Airports: KINF
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 191 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Soareyes »

Rich wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:09 pm
Soareyes wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:58 pm
The Cirrus stall is benign as long as you are coordinated. Even a skidding stall is easily recoverable but beware of the slipping (base to final overshoot) stall. Knowing where the dragon lives helps to avoid it.
The terminologies are reversed in your post. The overshoot results in a tendency to push rudder on the inside of the turn, resulting in a skid. But you are correct in that this is the more dangerous setup.
Oops, agree. Slipping good, skidding bad. Thanks for the correction.
Current: DA42-V1

Previous: Hang gliders, Paraglider, DA40(x3), Cessna 150 Aerobat, SR22
Jroseund
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:38 am
First Name: Jonathan
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N526AE
Airports: KBFF
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Jroseund »

Good recognition of the impending stall and recovery.

We pilots can become so goal orientated sometimes in trying to save a landing, or focusing so intently on doing what ATC instructs us to do that we forget to actually control the aircraft sometimes.

This brings up two important points for me.

1). It is very easy for us aviators to be the good guys and to help with ATC requests, or to do what ATC tells us to do. There are times though we can and should refuse ATC's requests (politely of course). I have seen many pilots that get so distracted by ATC wanting us to do something that they easily get behind the aircraft. I am whole heartedly guilty of this too. Guess what I'm try to get at is ATC is not the ultimate boss of your aircraft. You, being the PIC is ultimately responsible.

2). I believe we are coming to a point in time where all this extra safety features, ESP, etc. that OEM's are adding will ultimately cause the degradation of airmanship for pilots. We are already seeing this happen. Please explain how 3 Captains and 1 First Officer in a freaking 777 crashed on a clear day conducting a Visual Approach into SFO? That was in 2013. Auto Throttles are great, but I have heard so many horror stories of pilots being so dependent on Auto Throttles that they forget how to use the damn things. Pilots today have terrible stick and rudder skills because I feel the TAA aircraft with all of this safety stuff is actually making the PIC more dumb due to the relying on automation.

I learned to fly when glass cockpits first came out. My CFII class was the first to go through the Avidyne Glass cockpit in our Piper Warriors back in 2006. I guess I am partial for people to learn with the old steam gauges and learn to control the actual aircraft before adding all of these bells and whistles. Now I'm no Maverick or Chuck Yeager because the one who does will be a smoking hole one day. Just from my observations though all this safety stuff is great and does help save lives, but it will only help you to a certain extent when you loose situational awareness.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Rich »

Jroseund wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:34 pm Pilots today have terrible stick and rudder skills because I feel the TAA aircraft with all of this safety stuff is actually making the PIC more dumb due to the relying on automation.
Don't blame TAA for this. It is nothing new. When I was instructing (late 1970's) I commonly encountered licensed pilots who seem to have forgotten what rudder pedals are for and had a scary misunderstanding of stalls. The flight instructor I currently use for flight reviews tells me this is still the case and the involvement of TAA is not really in the picture. Adding all sorts of nanny behaviors into the control systems is new and would seem to be potentially a contributor in the future. But its very newness in the typical GA aircraft precludes assigning blame there just yet.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Boatguy »

Jroseund wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:34 pm 2). I believe we are coming to a point in time where all this extra safety features, ESP, etc. that OEM's are adding will ultimately cause the degradation of airmanship for pilots. We are already seeing this happen. Please explain how 3 Captains and 1 First Officer in a freaking 777 crashed on a clear day conducting a Visual Approach into SFO? That was in 2013. Auto Throttles are great, but I have heard so many horror stories of pilots being so dependent on Auto Throttles that they forget how to use the damn things. Pilots today have terrible stick and rudder skills because I feel the TAA aircraft with all of this safety stuff is actually making the PIC more dumb due to the relying on automation.
This was all addressed 20+ yrs ago in Children of the Magenta line:

Automation is not evil, it is simply an aspect of the aircraft that requires mastery like every other aspect of the aircraft. Using the correct level of automation for a given situation is like using the correct amount of flaps. We don't criticize pilots for using flaps or a stall horn, both of which could be viewed as a crutch that allows us to fly/land slower.

Are the space shuttle pilots crappy pilots because they had so much automation to help them with a dead stick landing?

All of this "in the good ole days when pilots were real men" shit is nonsense. Check the calendar, it's 2021, not 1937. Use the automation you want to use and don't use what you don't want to use. But disparaging the existence of automation and those who use it does not make you a better pilot, or the others a lesser pilot.
Jroseund
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:38 am
First Name: Jonathan
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N526AE
Airports: KBFF
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Another safe year for Diamonds

Post by Jroseund »

Apologies everyone if I came across a little too crass. It wasn't my intention to try and single any one type of pilot out or disparage a group of pilots. Yes, I do admit now that my post seemed a little harsh and that's my dumb fault for not proof reading enough.

It was just a thought that came into my mind considering how the automation issue has been in the headlines in our industry for sometime now. Thank you Russ for sharing that video. I honestly have not seen this presentation yet and will definitely watch it.

Have a good night everyone and fly safe.
Post Reply