Flight Sim

The ramblings of our community of aviators.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

SteveM
1 Diamond Member
1 Diamond Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:37 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N388JP
Airports: KBJC
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Flight Sim

Post by SteveM »

New to Diamond Aviators, have around 200 hours in rental G1000 KAP140 Diamond Star DA 40s (KBDU and KBJC) but haven’t flown since March (thank you very much pandemic!). As soon as I get my second shot (thank you very much Pfizer!) I plan to get current again and start on my instrument rating. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best budget friendly flight sim hardware/software combination to help get me back into the cockpit and also help with my instrument training? Also, I’ve read quite a bit about MS FS2020 and X-Plane 11, but not sure if either of these is what I need. Thanks for any advice!
User avatar
VickersPilot
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:41 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N00TBC
Airports:
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by VickersPilot »

I divide the sim concept into two categories (a) Hardware (b) Software.

Hardware:
Most of the G1000 Desktop Trainers are really, really poor copies. The only "replica quality" Garmin hardware is Aviatek. Not cheap, but the best ratio of quality/price:

https://aviatek.com/collections/all/pro ... op-trainer

Software:
- VFR - MSFS2020 is simply the best. The visual system is so good, one could learn to fly VFR using it (seriously).
- IFR - X-Plane has the best default G1000 implementation (outside of specialist installs) which various "aircraft" in the sim use.

Others - P3D is a little like Linux, open source, can do anything but is frustrating and becoming more of a specialist tool. Hope this helps get you started but any sim questions, feel free to ask.
User avatar
haykinson
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:32 am
First Name: ilya
Aircraft Type: DA40NG
Aircraft Registration: N724LA
Airports: KSMO
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by haykinson »

MSFS is beautiful. It has the DA40NG and DA40-TDI, as well as the DA62. I find it to be incredibly realistic, though the G1000 is poorly simulated and it makes any engine management or IFR operations between difficult and impossible.

X-Plane doesn't have the same looks or accuracy, but you can get most Diamond planes there (at an additional cost) with reasonably accurate G1000s. These will usually have some limitations (like maybe have odd approaches that don't exist, or not have SIDs/STARs/DPs).

For instrument training, assuming that you've got the basics down, I found that X-Plane plus Pilotedge is the best combination. Pilotedge gives you real ATC and real traffic — you actually hear people on the "radio" and transmit to them too. Unlike programmatic ATC in the flight sim itself, this real ATC tends to give you very realistic approaches and instructions. They understand airspace, give real departure procedures, real vectors that cut corners on the way to final approach course, give real step-downs in altitude, etc. It's well worth paying for this service for a few months.
SteveM
1 Diamond Member
1 Diamond Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:37 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N388JP
Airports: KBJC
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by SteveM »

This is really helpful, thanks. What kind of off the shelf hardware do you need to run x-plane? All I have now is a pretty ancient MacBook.
User avatar
mhoran
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:56 pm
First Name: Matt
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N269RB
Airports: KLDJ
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by mhoran »

My pandemic chair flying has been taking place via X-Plane. I don't have a DA40 model but I use a Cessna model with the G1000. My goal is staying proficient with the G1000 and instrument procedures, which X-Plane is great for. I use the Thrustmaster T16000M FCS which is a pretty decent joystick and feels familiar given the DA40 stick. One cool thing is that X-Plane can hook up to my iPad, so that functionality is just like being in my airplane.

I haven't tried MSFS (I tried downloading it once but gave up) but I hear the visuals are amazing. However, if I'm looking for visuals, I'm going to go fly my actual airplane! For IMC practice, X-Plane is great, and it has definitely helped my IFR proficiency.

There are definitely some things that the X-Plane G1000 simulator gets wrong, so you need to keep that in mind. I haven't used PilotEdge but it sounds fantastic and I will give it a shot some day.
User avatar
VickersPilot
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:41 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N00TBC
Airports:
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by VickersPilot »

I too am going try PilotEdge this week, looks fantastic. Really good reports about the immersive factor of "real" ATC.
User avatar
MarkA
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:58 am
First Name: Mark
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N123MZ
Airports: KHIO
Has thanked: 114 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by MarkA »

My experience is that PC based simulators don’t really help all that much to maintain your “stick and rudder skills”. For instrument training with a G1000/GFC700 based plane however, the challenge is to really understand both what the system is going to do in a given situation and how to quickly recover when it does something you didn’t expect 8).

For that reason, from my perspective the accuracy of the simulator’s performance profile for pitch-power-attitude settings are less important than how accurately the avionics are simulated. That includes simulating all the "gotchas" of the real device - Google “G1000 gotchas” for a few examples of the subtle mistakes one can make with the G1000 when flying approaches. It's really hard to practice these corner cases in a real plane doing practice approaches with other planes in the pattern doing touch and goes at the same non-towered field.

I’ve been using the Version 12 of the Garmin’s G1000 DA40 simulator with Logitech joystick. It is a pretty accurate simulation of the real G1000 device (WAAS, SVT, etc.). I do however find it clunky to “spin the knobs” by clicking the mouse next to the buttons. I can also image practicing with something like Pilot Edge could also be a great help in that responding to radio calls while frantically trying to make the G1000 behave can be challenging at times.

You can get version 12 of Garmin's PC based DA40 G1000 simulator at MyPilotSore.com at the following URL:

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/5990

Note this version of the simulator runs v0321.22 of the G1000 software with WAAS and a GFC700 autopilot.
2010 DA40 XLS, N123MZ, KHIO
https://youtu.be/LuQr6mGxffg
User avatar
waynemcc999
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:38 pm
First Name: Wayne
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N211WP
Airports: KSBA
Has thanked: 1502 times
Been thanked: 399 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by waynemcc999 »

haykinson wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:19 pm For instrument training, assuming that you've got the basics down, I found that X-Plane plus Pilotedge is the best combination. Pilotedge gives you real ATC and real traffic — you actually hear people on the "radio" and transmit to them too. Unlike programmatic ATC in the flight sim itself, this real ATC tends to give you very realistic approaches and instructions. They understand airspace, give real departure procedures, real vectors that cut corners on the way to final approach course, give real step-downs in altitude, etc. It's well worth paying for this service for a few months.
I'm totally with Ilya on this... X-Plane 11 plus PilotEdge.

Thoughts on PilotEdge: You're likely to say, "but they don't have east coast coverage". I'm going to counter that you'll get PLENTY of realism and adrenaline rush (!!) flying and communicating IFR in SoCal (or the West in general). It's the real-person ATC and the stress that causes that really matters in IFR training.

Thoughts on X-Plane 11: As noted by others on this thread, MS2020 wins hands down on visual fidelity... but flying IFR is about physics and avionics, and X-Plane 11 for now (and probably the next year or so) -- with pretty much universal agreement -- wins on these two critical points. I also would consider the avionics fidelity the most important, and for that reason suggest you don't get hung up on needing a Diamond... the G1000 implementation in the stock C172/G1000 is pretty good... and the payware TorqueSim SR22 is excellent.

You might find this Primer on X-Plane useful.

Enjoy the sim!
Wayne
Wayne McClelland
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
SteveM
1 Diamond Member
1 Diamond Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:37 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N388JP
Airports: KBJC
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by SteveM »

Thanks for all the input; time to get out the credit card and go shopping!
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1327 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Flight Sim

Post by Boatguy »

MarkA wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:34 pm For instrument training with a G1000/GFC700 based plane however, the challenge is to really understand both what the system is going to do in a given situation and how to quickly recover when it does something you didn’t expect.
I'm more in Mark's camp. The MSFS graphics are pretty, but for instrument training by far the most important thing you want is a good G1000 simulation. The view out the canopy is irrelevant and you'll never get accurate power/pitch training from a sim.

Find a Redbird, or other certified sim. You can log up to 20hrs of your required 40hrs of dual instrument training in a certified sim. The G1000 buttons are close to real and the Redbird software is OK for the basics. The stick/rudder part is fairly poor, but other than for hand flying to intercept approaches, it's not very important (tip: put/keep the top of the CDI bar under the current heading to intercept). It is much more time efficient, much less expensive (both rental time and CFII time) than training in a real airplane, and it has a "pause" button. Your CFII can act as ATC.

Use the sim to learn the G1000 "buttonology" so that when you're in the plane you are never that pilot who asks "what's it doing now?". Know how to always have the Flight Director doing what you want since your CFII will probably have you hand flying 80% of the time. Mastering the FD in the sim will free up the brain cycles to deal with real world ATC, turbulence, traffic, etc. when you're in the plane.

One of the things that terrified me in instrument training was flying practice approaches to non-towered airports cluttered with VFR traffic flying the pattern. Learn the procedures and the rhythm of approaches in the sim before you have to deal with VFR traffic while you're under the hood. Your CFII will be splitting his time between looking for traffic and watching what you are doing. Inevitably you will have to break off some approaches because the lower/closer plane has right of way to land (i.e., the guy who turns base in front of your straight in practice approach). And it really gets to be fun when the ILS is on the opposite end of the runway from the one in use by the VFR traffic!
Post Reply