ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
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- waynemcc999
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ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
In Part 1 of this short series, we observed these two products side-by-side on a real-life IFR-to-VFR flight. Now in Part 2, Jan leads us on a more controlled Bench Test. Welcome back! Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
Wayne McClelland
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Refreshingly this discussion doesn't get into the foolish subject of price considerations or religious issues ("I hate Apple") that I see rampant in other social media posts.
My flying costs if I never turn the key in the airplane and assuming nothing whatsoever fails run above $8K plus. Given my flying, still assuming no upgrades or failures, is easily North of $10K. My $400 (includes Canada) per year for FF amounts to < 4% of that. This is no more than noise.
My flying costs if I never turn the key in the airplane and assuming nothing whatsoever fails run above $8K plus. Given my flying, still assuming no upgrades or failures, is easily North of $10K. My $400 (includes Canada) per year for FF amounts to < 4% of that. This is no more than noise.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
- waynemcc999
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Rich, I'm with you 100%+. I don't get those who pinch pennies on high value-added items... such as an EFB, a standalone ADS-B/AHRS device, etc, etc... when our base costs are, as you noted, pretty substantial.Rich wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:05 pm Refreshingly this discussion doesn't get into the foolish subject of price considerations or religious issues ("I hate Apple") that I see rampant in other social media posts.
My flying costs if I never turn the key in the airplane and assuming nothing whatsoever fails run above $8K plus. Given my flying, still assuming no upgrades or failures, is easily North of $10K. My $400 (includes Canada) per year for FF amounts to < 4% of that. This is no more than noise.
Thanks for watching!
Wayne
Wayne McClelland
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
- CFIDave
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Having used both products for years, I still prefer Foreflight.
Why? Garmin Pilot's user interface is terrible, complex, and inconsistent. There are way too many different types of navigation screens, menu systems, option selections, etc. It's as if Garmin simply layered on more and more features over time as a jumble of windows, screens, and "widgets." It's a kludge. The entire program could use a complete redesign and rewrite.
In contrast, Foreflight's interface is elegant, and is even quite usable on the limited screen "real estate" of an iPhone.
There are 2 features that still keep me using Pilot as an adjunct to Foreflight: First is the ability to select an optimum cruising altitude -- by combining the DA62's AFM cruise speed at a given power level and altitude (about 3knots increase in cruise with each additional 2000 feet of altitude), with the winds aloft forecast along my route. Flying higher provides better TAS, but often creates increased headwinds (especially westbound in the winter). In contrast, Foreflight assumes the same static TAS at every altitude unless I pre-define a huge set of profiles for every combination of altitude and power settings -- not very practical.
I'm guessing Foreflight might match Pilot on this feature, but only if I pay $300/year for the Performance version (I'm paying only $150.). I get a free upgrade to the most advanced version of Pilot, since it's included with my G1000 NXi annual PilotPak database bundle. (I do have to pay Garmin $75/year for the basic version of Pilot as a prerequisite to getting the free advanced version).
The other advantage of Pilot over Foreflight is that the Profile View along your flight path displays far more information, including winds aloft, PIREPS, METAR/TAF cloud coverage, and (very useful) forecast icing levels. Foreflight shows little more than terrain clearance.
So I'll first use Pilot to select my cruise altitude, then I'll enter that into Foreflight to actually obtain my weather/NOTAMs briefing and file.
Why? Garmin Pilot's user interface is terrible, complex, and inconsistent. There are way too many different types of navigation screens, menu systems, option selections, etc. It's as if Garmin simply layered on more and more features over time as a jumble of windows, screens, and "widgets." It's a kludge. The entire program could use a complete redesign and rewrite.
In contrast, Foreflight's interface is elegant, and is even quite usable on the limited screen "real estate" of an iPhone.
There are 2 features that still keep me using Pilot as an adjunct to Foreflight: First is the ability to select an optimum cruising altitude -- by combining the DA62's AFM cruise speed at a given power level and altitude (about 3knots increase in cruise with each additional 2000 feet of altitude), with the winds aloft forecast along my route. Flying higher provides better TAS, but often creates increased headwinds (especially westbound in the winter). In contrast, Foreflight assumes the same static TAS at every altitude unless I pre-define a huge set of profiles for every combination of altitude and power settings -- not very practical.
I'm guessing Foreflight might match Pilot on this feature, but only if I pay $300/year for the Performance version (I'm paying only $150.). I get a free upgrade to the most advanced version of Pilot, since it's included with my G1000 NXi annual PilotPak database bundle. (I do have to pay Garmin $75/year for the basic version of Pilot as a prerequisite to getting the free advanced version).
The other advantage of Pilot over Foreflight is that the Profile View along your flight path displays far more information, including winds aloft, PIREPS, METAR/TAF cloud coverage, and (very useful) forecast icing levels. Foreflight shows little more than terrain clearance.
So I'll first use Pilot to select my cruise altitude, then I'll enter that into Foreflight to actually obtain my weather/NOTAMs briefing and file.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- waynemcc999
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Dave, I think you hit the key comparative points very well!
Regarding user interface... before starting with ForeFlight about 8 years ago, I had first used WingX for 6 months or so. Found WingX to be strong on functionality (at the time) but super klutzy on user interface. As you noted, ForeFlight is indeed elegant, consistent, and clean.
I also agree with your point about the better Profile view in Garmin Pilot... more info, plus better use of the full (or split) screen.
On the performance calcs versus altitude, I do have the ForeFlight Performance Plus subscription and find it does quite a good job at this for my DA40.
Thanks for taking the time to provide such good insight... much appreciated!
Wayne
Regarding user interface... before starting with ForeFlight about 8 years ago, I had first used WingX for 6 months or so. Found WingX to be strong on functionality (at the time) but super klutzy on user interface. As you noted, ForeFlight is indeed elegant, consistent, and clean.
I also agree with your point about the better Profile view in Garmin Pilot... more info, plus better use of the full (or split) screen.
On the performance calcs versus altitude, I do have the ForeFlight Performance Plus subscription and find it does quite a good job at this for my DA40.
Thanks for taking the time to provide such good insight... much appreciated!
Wayne
Wayne McClelland
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
PPL/IR, 2008 Diamond Star DA40-XLS 40.922, KSBA
Photo logs of PilotsNPaws | Flying Doctors | Angel Flight | YouTube @GeezerGeekPilot
- CFIDave
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
One more issue related to Garmin Pilot: After waiting years for Diamond/Garmin to update my DA62's software, I was initially excited by the prospect of using Garmin Pilot on my iPad to provide database updates wirelessly (via WiFi) to my G1000 NXi panel with a FlightStream 510 card.
But it proved to be unworkable because file transfer takes too long. Unless I put my DA62 on ground power by hooking up a GPU, I run the risk of running down the plane's main battery, especially when transferring the multi-gigabyte IFR/VFR chart files that are now updated every 28 days. These take more than 5 minutes to transfer.
So I still perform database updates the "old fashioned" way by putting files on an SDcard, and yanking out my FS510 card to insert the SDcard into the MFD every time I want to update my panel. By doing so, I've eliminated one of the potential advantages of Garmin Pilot over Foreflight.
But it proved to be unworkable because file transfer takes too long. Unless I put my DA62 on ground power by hooking up a GPU, I run the risk of running down the plane's main battery, especially when transferring the multi-gigabyte IFR/VFR chart files that are now updated every 28 days. These take more than 5 minutes to transfer.
So I still perform database updates the "old fashioned" way by putting files on an SDcard, and yanking out my FS510 card to insert the SDcard into the MFD every time I want to update my panel. By doing so, I've eliminated one of the potential advantages of Garmin Pilot over Foreflight.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Rich
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
5 minutes? Is there a correction to be made here?CFIDave wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:07 pm But it proved to be unworkable because file transfer takes too long. Unless I put my DA62 on ground power by hooking up a GPU, I run the risk of running down the plane's main battery, especially when transferring the multi-gigabyte IFR/VFR chart files that are now updated every 28 days. These take more than 5 minutes to transfer.
My FF updates (11 Western States + BC and parts of Alberta and some collateral US/Canada stuff) are roughly 4.3 GB for the 56 day cycle and about 1.5 for the interim 28 day cycles. I'm thinking a full US might be triple that. Of course this data doesn't get loaded into the GNS units and the downloads for each of these cards is an astonishingly (given the amount of stuff that they contain) small ~7.5 MB.
For us 6-packers the incremental utility provided by these top-tier EFBs is substantial.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Yup, 5 minutes for the entire US IFR low/high and VFR charts. I'm guessing the FS510 wireless SDcard might use one of the older (slower) WiFi standards for database file transfers. (The 510 card uses Bluetooth for all of its other communications with the iPad, including synchronizing of flight plans, sending of ADS-B weather and traffic, etc.)
Garmin even suggests transferring of these large files by placing them on an SDcard instead of using the FS510.
Garmin even suggests transferring of these large files by placing them on an SDcard instead of using the FS510.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Rich
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Ah, I misunderstood, Dave. Yes, loading from the internet is highly dependent on one's service. I have 8 Mbit, which is serviceable, but multi-Gbyte downloads do require patience. If I download at my stepdaughter's place, it's mere minutes.
In my case I have two data streams going in the plane, with AHRS, GPS and FP transfer happening over BT and ADS-B in via WiFi
Incidentally I believe the Stratus 3 can be used to interact with Garmin Pilot, but not simultaneously with FF. I have experienced this with having a safety pilot using FlyQ.
In my case I have two data streams going in the plane, with AHRS, GPS and FP transfer happening over BT and ADS-B in via WiFi
Incidentally I believe the Stratus 3 can be used to interact with Garmin Pilot, but not simultaneously with FF. I have experienced this with having a safety pilot using FlyQ.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: ForeFlight & Garmin Pilot: Side-by-Side - Part 2: Bench Test
Is there a way to load the files onto a SD card from my iPad? I always use the FS510 and sometimes I feel for the FBO guy waiting on me to get going...
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