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CFIDave
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Deleted posts

Post by CFIDave »

Kai:

What's with deleting my post?

I didn't make a recommendation or link to a Diamond distributor, but instead gave a *factual* description of my experience as a customer of LifeStyle Aviation who bought a new DA42-VI from them -- long before I started working for LifeStyle. I provided exactly what the original poster asked for. FYI, Mike Farley who posted here works for one of our competitors, and (before he went back and changed his post) recommended his employer without divulging his salesperson relationship. At least I was being honest.

With all that I've provided in help and recommendations over the years on this forum, I think you owe me an explanation. This isn't the first one of my posts you've deleted without explanation, but If you keep doing this you're going to drive some of us away.

- Dave
N62DV DA62 62.056
N42DA DA42-VI 42.N117 (sold)
N811ET DA40 XLS 40.874 (sold)
KJYO Leesburg, Virginia
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farleymike
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Re: Diamond DA62 Dealers Midwest USA

Post by farleymike »

Dave,

Careful with the "at least I was being honest" I have never hid my involvement with a Diamond dealer on this sight and have answered numerous posts stating where my info comes from just as you and Dan have.

I was also giving my personal opinion as a buyer of 3 Diamond aircraft with the first one in 2004 long before I had a working relationship with the Diamond dealer starting in 2013.

I did not change my post, it was deleted by Chris as I did not know we were not allowed to recommend our companies.

mike
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Chris
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by Chris »

The forum policy is pretty clear:
Any recruiting, selling, or otherwise promoting services, products or businesses is strictly forbidden
I hesitated even permitting the original "Diamond DA64 Dealers" post on the Public Forum since I figured it might encourage violation of the policy above, but I had hoped that non-salespersons would chime in about their experiences. Perhaps that was a mistake. The forum is provided free of charge using the generous donations of a (very) few members, and restricting content to non-commercial use has been part of the deal ever since the site was founded.

Both of you are valuable contributors to the forum and nobody wants to take posts down. We just ask that you not use this forum in a way that directs potential customers to your businesses.
Chris
N123MZ / DA40-180XLS / 40.1070
KHIO
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JohnE
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by JohnE »

I don't want to sound like a jerk here... This forum does not get a lot of postings. I'm also a member at COPA. There you can post your aircraft for sale and *gasp* put up a want ad for an aircraft. I tried doing that here and it was deleted and then after they posted the rules to me, one user "thanked" the admin for doing that with the thank button. Our user base is so small, I really wish they could lighten up a bit. My two cents. John
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Kai
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by Kai »

John,

if we do allow sales and commercial activity, we would have a lot more moderation work to do (hostile discussions among people professionally participating in the market are not quite uncommon as you might see above). Chris is maintaining this forum in his free time on a voluntary base. If you and the other 1200 members of this forum are willing to pay $65 per year, accept advertisements, emails from DAN recommending you insurances, aircraft financing and so on, it would be a piece of cake to pay for someone to take over the tedious moderation work. We cannot thank Chris enough for the job he is doing.

Meanwhile and at 500-1000$ of donations we receive each year from our helpful supporters plus the time and money we invest from our pockets, please do not expect too much. It is our hobby to run this forum, we are just pilots and aircraft owners and want to keep it this way.(Yes, there are times when we could have gone flying but fixed stuff on the forum instead). COPA is run professionally by people who earn their money maintaining the organization. I believe that DAN is a very helpful tool for many of us but at this time we cannot extend our services.

I have offered many times to use this forum to found an organization and follow COPA´s example. In the end there was nobody willing to take the responsibility and workload involved. To another point we believe that every Diamond pilot should be able to at least read all of the helpful advice that can be found here. All of the long term members here agree that it makes flying Diamonds safer if we keep this forum open. Only 20% of the COPA content can be obtained not being a paying member. The price our members have to pay for this big advantage DAN offers to all Diamond pilots is to make it easy for us admins and moderators.

One last point, John: our members may post their aircraft and other items for sale. We have limited it to members with more than 50 posts in order to avoid people signing up just to sell something. If you have any other idea on how to manage this, feel free to come up with suggestions.

Mike and Dave: the discussions you are having here are absolutely not the kind of input I was ever looking for in this forum. The forum is a friendly and peaceful place until money and interests get involved. There are a few other sales people out there who also didn´t get my point and I wish I could say "I couldn´t care less". Until today we have kept it open also for DAI aircraft dealers and their staff because our fellow members do get a lot of insight, so we are happy that you guys are active members here. If the price is that we have to deal with bad vibrations, all kinds of intents to bend the rules instead of trying to understand our point of view, we will limit the free membership to owners only.

To make it short: this forum is not the place for competition between dealers but where pilots help each other. Please, help us to keep it this way.
DA40F - N405FP/HS-KAI (sold)
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AndrewM
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by AndrewM »

Why not have a commercial section then, rather than deleting posts etc? As long as the relevant posts are located there, could that not be a simple solution? I don't really see what the big deal is (no pun intended...).
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CFIDave
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by CFIDave »

Kai wrote:If the price is that we have to deal with bad vibrations, all kinds of intents to bend the rules instead of trying to understand our point of view, we will limit the free membership to owners only.
Some of us who work for distributors *ARE* owners. Both Mike and I (along with our pilot wives) have each owned multiple Diamond aircraft. I learned to fly in a DA20, owned a DA40 for 4 years, owned a DA42 for 4 more years, and am now fortunate enough to own a DA62.

But the majority of what I've learned about Diamond, their aircraft, and how to fly them has come from my more recent experience of working for a Diamond distributor -- where I get to fly dozens of different new and used planes, make ferry flights to deliver aircraft, provide transition training (as a CFI) to new owners, and help solve customer maintenance issues. If you ban from this forum dealers/distributors who are also owners, you're going to curtail a lot of helpful input and discussion. Given Diamond's lack of participation on DAN, often the only way owners will learn about important new developments is through distributor participation.

I believe there's a significant difference between:
- recommending or promoting a particular Diamond distributor, or offering anything for sale,
vs.
- identifying that you work for a particular distributor, so readers can judge whether the information you're posting might be self-serving or not. In my view, openness and transparency is generally acknowledged as being a good thing.

If I were to put LifeStyle Aviation in my signature, would that be going too far?
N62DV DA62 62.056
N42DA DA42-VI 42.N117 (sold)
N811ET DA40 XLS 40.874 (sold)
KJYO Leesburg, Virginia
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Kai
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by Kai »

Dave,

I agree with all said, yet we need to draw the line somewhere. If you are here as an owner, we are glad to have you here and if you are here as a dealer, please just take the dealer-jacket off.

We do not have many rules, but they are here for everyone who hasn't read them all: ucp.php?mode=terms

You will find the answer to the signatures, too: "Signatures. We discourage the use of links to your sales-orientated business or web site in your sig. Using the Forums for commercial gain is, in effect, theft of service. "
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thefoxx
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by thefoxx »

I love this entire forum, and I am in agreement that for the little activity that this entire forum gets, allowing a commercial section might seem like a great idea. Seeing a new post or a new thread is like a little Christmas present!

I absolutely appreciate CFI-Dave and the other distributors valuable input - this forum would never be the same without it. I have not felt that either are pushing their own services, but even when they do mention their dealerships, in my opinion, has not caused any negative effects on the forums, but on the contrary has greatly increased the quality of the conversation - as to opening some of our eyes to the value that various distributors have by being an active part of the community. By enforcing this rule so aggressively, there is a danger that this forum may almost suffer the problem that Diamond has been having its self - NOT participating with its owners.

I feel that we should be welcoming the distributors participation in the forum - and at the very least, identifying their relationship with said distributors in their signature would be very helpful - this way, if they are prevented from mentioning in the post, at least as a reader, we can identify the helpful people and what operation they are with.

To that end, I absolutely value KAI and Chris's time and efforts into supporting this forum. I am going to make a serious effort to make a donation soon, but please - loosening the slack on the rope just a little I don't think is asking too much.

As a Diamond owner, we need this forum, it's owners and especially its knowledgeable contributors.
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nrenno
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Re: Deleted posts

Post by nrenno »

I also like this forum, but in my opinion allowing commercial discussions would decrease the value of the forum because it would be difficult to distinguish opinions biased by commercial interests from non-biased opinions.

Perhaps the distributors can start their own forums or blogs. Then, announce them on this forum.
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