How to value a DA20

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okent
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by okent » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:33 pm

I agree. The wife and I have a very good professional working relationship and I see her almost weekly.
If the financials work out I just don't see a downside to getting the plane airworthy again, if nothing else but to have a good Diamond trainer in the area.
She's always been very reasonable but I just don't know her husband very well so that's the wild card.
Hopefully we can work out a win/win deal.
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RMarkSampson
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by RMarkSampson » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 pm

Another point - engines absolutely hate not running. They need to run otherwise they will rot out from the inside out. It is in their best interest to keep 'er flying no matter who owns her.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by okent » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:12 am

Finally talked to everyone today and they are ready to sell the plane. It's a 2000 model and from memory has about 1100 hours on the engine, though it's been sitting for 5 years. I can't remember what the total time was on the airplane but it was a relatively low from what I remember. I will look at the plane end of next week.

Here's my thinking:
1. I've see DA20's for sale recently for around 75K but they seem to linger on the boards so I figure that the ones that sell are going for about 60K.

2. I would think the engine needs to be completely gone through since it's been literally sitting in a hanger for 5 years.
Complete overhaul is about 20K and a new engine is 35K. Which would you all suggest?

3. I have no idea how avionics handle that much time sitting in a hanger so I don't know how to estimate the cost of getting the panel checked out.
Ideally I could update some of the avionics as I've seen on the forum.

Option 1: Dual G5's(5K?) + GAD 29 ($500) + GMU11 ($300) = 6K?
Option 2: Aspen 1000 PFD = 8K?
Plus JPI EDM-900 = (4K)

4. ADS-B is right around the corner and don't know what options are available for the DA20. (2K?)

5. If it's being refurbished I might as well get the MT prop installed (4K)

6. Average insurance cost per year?

7. Hanger space?(not parking this outside)

That puts me offering 25K for the plane. I don't want to insult them but I would like to build in a margin as it seems like there's always more expense than expected. I know this prices in them biting the bullet for the upgrades but the benefit is that they would be allowed access to the plane. They bought it because they believed it was the best two seat trainer on the market and still feel that way. This would get them back in an upated VFR plane that is super safe. They got burned so bad from the FBO they were leasing the plan back to for students they just don't have the desire to tackle this project.

I also have two grown kids who have expressed interest in flying so it would be really cool to start this tradition in the family.

Also, I'm in Tulsa so any reference for shops or mechanics would be great.

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks

Tom
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by YCCA » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:05 am

I might know someone who is selling one in the US.. PM me for details if you would like
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by RMarkSampson » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:17 pm

Tom,
This is all just my opinion. Trying to value a DA20 via a blog is impossible. DA20s go from $50K to $$$new. They all fly the same. It just matters how much you need to put into her to get and keep her airworthy. A sitting engine is not good but it does not make it worthless. Borescopes are a great way to see the state of things. You can pull all four cylinders and have them overhauls for a little over $1K a cylinder (plus removal/reinstall). Gaskets that harden up might need replacing but you normally only see a bit of staining - most owners "decline" those squawks unless the leak is substantial. If compression checks are good then I'm certainly not inclined to toss a working engine. TBO is only mandatory if you are flying it commercially. Read some of Mike Busch's stuff - he helps owners get beyond the "every 2000 hour overhaul" mentality to a more reasonable and affordable path to engine maintenance that still ensures safety of flight.

Items 3,4,5 don't devalue a plane, they increase value in the plane if they are already there. So in my opinion you should not subtract these costs from a 60K plane to make a 25K offer. I would fall into "I'm offended" crowd. Even ADS-B is not mandatory unless you fly in certain airspace. I installed a GDL-84 a few years ago. Yes my plane is worth more with it installed - but I'm not inclined to say my plane is only worth scrap without it. I just paid $600 for that small canopy sliding window. A DA-20 is worth more than 25K even if you just decided to break her up for parts.

Insurance costs depends on risk of how you fly her - plus the "hull value" that you wish to carry. My estimate: $1,000 for a seasoned pilot/owner, $1,500 for less experienced pilots (or an "open pilot" policy) - to about $4,000 if you want a commercial trainer and/or a club full of various pilots, including student pilots.

Hangar costs - just call around. Widely varies depending on airport location, type of services at airport, availability, and hangar type (T-hangars vs shared hangars etc.) In shared hangars where you may pay based on dimension - the DA-20 can be considered pricey because she has long wings, vice a plane with stubby short wings.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by Don » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:42 pm

I agree with Mark above. If I was really interested in the plane, I would start off with a $40K offer. Anything less would be considered a very low ball offer. On the other hand, if I owned the plane, I would also be insulted with a $25k offer and would tell the buyer to go pound sand. Also, you did mention the plane had been stored in a hanger which could mean that it is cosmetically in better condition than a plane that has spent it's life outdoors on the ramp. Anyway, just my two cents.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by okent » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Thank you all very much for the input.

There's a little more detail that has fueled my concern for the engine. I was the last guy to fly it and immediately after takeoff had a drop in oil pressure and increase in temp and called an emergency(was with my CFI). Two different mechanics said it needed an overhaul and the owners said they wanted to think about it(5 years later and it's still in the hanger) That gives me a little more than mild concern about the condition of the engine and is the reason I feel like I should plan for an overhaul.

I do agree with the feeling that swapping out steam gauges, prop and ADS-B isn't their problem. The plane flew just fine with them before but it is something that I feel the plane will end up with. I just don't know how to value their access to the plane once it's up and running again.

They are good people and I don't want to come in with an unreasonable offer and end up with hurt feelings. I also don't want to be unrealistic in what it would take to get it up to speed. The wild card is the instruments as I don't know how well they tolerate sitting for so long.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by YCCA » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:36 am

The quickest way to never have a shot at this plane is to offer them 25K. Even if it needs an engine, that’s like 24K installed.. The plane is worth between 65-75 with a new engine.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by okent » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:26 am

40k it is. That should leave enough of a cushion to fix any avionics issues.
I'll plan to add the MT prop and JPI EDM-900. From what I've read that prop change has been universally positive and I would like a more modern engine monitoring system with accurate fuel totalizer.
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Re: How to value a DA20

Post by krellis » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:00 am

Have you considered making a reasonable offer that stipulates that the airplane have a current annual? Sounds like an engine teardown is in the cards and that way - the current owner accepts the risk/cost of making that happen. It might not require a complete overhaul.

I'm with the others - a $25K offer is too low and if I were the owner, I wouldn't even counter.
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