Fire retardant paint

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RMarkSampson
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by RMarkSampson »

I know this post thread is a bit old but it pertains to something every DA-20 owner will probably deal with at some time. So here is my follow-up from my belly and cowling Fire Retardant Paint effort I did last spring.

Diamond Ontario was very helpful in providing insight and guidance. They also provided the materials in the right quantities - and "fresh" - not something that has been sitting on the shelf for some time. I did need to purchase the materials through a service center but it was shipped direct from Diamond. Believe shelf life is an important consideration for ensuring the material adheres to the plane as advertised. If not properly applied the paint may flake off prematurely. Shipping was expensive but it required a bunch of paperwork done on their end for internationally shipping the hazardous material.

I have attached Diamond's document that identifies how the paint is applied and part numbers for the products required, there are no alternates. I did shop around but there were no other distributors for these products as they are prepared for Diamond Aircraft. I was quoted a price of $1,000 by a Diamond Service Center but I doubt that price would have survived them actually completing the work to the degree needed. I actually spent closer to $1,500 to do it myself but the results were superior.
Diamond stated the Fire Paint and top coat items can be purchased in any quantity desired. Only paint that has become unbonded or is loose on the cowlings actually needs to be replaced. You will have to scrape off any loose material, sand areas to receive new material and wipe all areas with acetone or isopropyl alcohol to degrease. I actually used a pressure washer to fully remove the old fire paint from the upper cowling as it was really peeling off - the bottom cowling just needed a bit of sanding and touching up. Most of the old Fire Paint on the belly of the aircraft had flaked off in the slip stream - so I scraped away the little that was remaining.
Fire_Paint_Process from Diamond Aircraft.pdf
(407.16 KiB) Downloaded 794 times
To give you an estimate of fire paint requirements, Diamond stated to paint the interior of both cowlings complete (2liters) plus the lower belly area complete (1liter). The clear coat for all these areas requires 1 quart of the top coat and 1 quart of reducer and 1/2 quart hardener. I only bought two liters of the Fire Paint since the lower cowling just needed a touch up. Diamond Ontario will not quote a price for the material, pricing is obtained from a Diamond Service Center.

Applying the Fire Paint is easy - it is water based and you just roll it on evenly until you run out of material - just layer it up. There is a minimum drying time before applying the clear coat - I added several days to that to absolutely ensure that the Fire Paint was dry. I decided to roll on the clear coat to the upper and lower cowlings - the surface is not smooth but it came out very nice. Due to the slip stream, I worked on making the Fire Paint on the belly smooth using a small brush along with the roller - and I sprayed on the clear coat vice rolling. Results were also nice. Before/After pics attached.

I'm actually very happy with my decision to do the work myself (with my FAA-cert mechanic friend at my side). This procedure takes time and don't rush things - taking more time is one advantage over a service center or other shop. Spending extra time will yield better results. Finally, one very important safety tip - the clear coat is extremely volatile. Absolutely use a respirator - and I'm not talking about a dust mask – a real respirator that can keep those organic molecules out. Lowes and Home Depot have them for about $35.
Attachments
Before-After Pictures.jpg
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rwtucker
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by rwtucker »

I'm driving a DA40 right now but I'm curious about the fire retardant paint. Is there a special reason it is required? How does it work? Has anyone seen an example of its effectiveness?
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by RMarkSampson »

RWT,
Although it is referred to as "Fire Retardant" - its primary day-to-day purpose is "Heat Shield." It is applied as a thick substance and it protects the cowling from the engine heat, especially around the exhaust piping. The belly of the plane also has a layer of this paint to protect the composite from the engine exhaust, but the slip stream does a lot to mitigate that heat - especially with a smaller engine found in the DA-20. A good read on the subject is an experimental plane builder's site which discuss the various levels of protection used to protect the plane from engine heat. Diamond has several Service Bulletins that dealt with heat issues and provided higher levels of protection at various spots inside the cowling. The metal flanges on my lower cowling is actually one of those alts. http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/31_5/bu ... 988-1.html

It is easy to ignore the loss of the paint from inside the cowling (out-of-sight, out of mind?!?) but the heat will eventually discolor the exterior cowling paint and damage the cowling itself if nothing is done about it.
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by Kai »

Mark,

Thanks for the detailed write up. I am preparing the shopping list to get my cowling fixed but by no means I end up with $1000 or $1500 in materials. So I figured I must have made an error somehow. In previous posts they stated that Diamond charges $125 per litre of the fire retardant paint and maybe the same for the top coat. Would you mind going a bit into detail of the pricing?
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by smoss »

An alternative/addition is to strategically apply adhesive heat shield such as http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/e ... ckkey=7730 to spots that obviously are taking heat. Autozone sells a similar (not kevlar) adhesive heat shield that works great and cost $20 or something for a pretty good sized sheet that can be cut to any shape.
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by rwtucker »

Looks like Amazon & Summit have product identical to Spruce. I've used similar near my Dakota's TC body and exhaust area. It seems to work better than the older method of riveting an aluminum reflective plate in the area.

http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-16850- ... at+barrier

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/the-1 ... fgodqkYJhQ
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by RMarkSampson »

Kai,
Here are the prices from my invoice from Premier Aircraft (Diamond Svc Center) in Ft Lauderdale. They gave me a 10% discount.

7330BP0802-KCH0 Paint, Fire Retardant, White Retail $228.98 per liter - my price $206.08 (times two liters)
9008B0900D-KADO Clear Coat, Gloss Retail $402.63 per liter - my price $362.37
9008CR-GTPO Thinner Retail $255.58 per liter - my price $230.02
9008B-LXSO Activator (Hardener) for the clear coat Retail $447.00 half liter - my price $402.30

That is what I paid - however, the commercial invoice for the export document sent by Diamond stated "commodity values" on it: $297.67 for 2 liters of Fire Paint, $281.84 for the clear coat, $178.91 for the paint thinner, and $156.45 for the activator. So if that is what Premier paid Diamond then I paid about a $500 markup since I was required to go through the Service Center.

Per the discussion on alternatives - I think would breed a whole new discussion of what is "allowed" on a certified aircraft vice an experimental. I am sure other substitutes would function OK but Diamond specifically identifies the products listed above as their only solution. My logbook states "Removed all Fire Paint from upper inside cowling and belly of aircraft. Removed loose Fire Paint from lower inside cowling and prepared surfaces for application of new material. Reapplied new Fire Paint (P/N 7330BP0802-KCH0), Clear Coat Gloss with Activator (P/Ns 9008B0900D-KADO and 9008B-LXSO) with Thinner 9008CR-GTPO) using Diamond Aircraft supplied directions (dated 13 May 2014 Rev0)." An alternate solution could never cite the same...

Finally, I did use up both liters of the Fire Paint but I have over half of the clear coat left - and way more than half of the thinner and hardener left. My aircraft is good to go so I certainly have no use for the remaining material (per shelf life, I purchased the material and completed the repair in FEB 2015). I would be OK with letting that go to another Diamond airframe in need that is residing in the US (don't want to deal with any export issues) - figure about 1/3 the cost of the "commodity value" cited on the Diamond invoice or $200 as a round number. I'm in Florida if interested.
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by Kai »

Thank you, Mark, for the details. I see the Diamond center charges a huge amount. From what I have seen in the instructions you posted, the fire retardant paint Diamond recommends is the PPG Steelguard FM585. You can buy a 20lt-can for 250$.... why would they sell it with such a markup???? (Click here)
buy list cowling fire retardant.png
Will finish the tables once I have quotations from the supplier.
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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by Chris B »

Hi Mark -

Thank you for the detailed post!
RMarkSampson wrote:Per the discussion on alternatives - I think would breed a whole new discussion of what is "allowed" on a certified aircraft vice an experimental. I am sure other substitutes would function OK but Diamond specifically identifies the products listed above as their only solution.
At the risk of going down the rabbit hole, at least here in the US this is a judgment call by your IA. 14 CFR Part 1.1 & 21.93 expressly permit "minor" modifications.
14 CFR Part 21.93 wrote:A ‘minor change’ is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are ‘major changes’
Reasonable people could view using an alternative material specifically designed for heat shielding as a minor modification. Certainly it would be far better than avoiding the problem and risking blistering - or worse.

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Re: Fire retardant paint

Post by RMarkSampson »

Kai, I actually did run down the PPG trail (see below) but decided to go the Diamond route. Ultimately, I did not want to purchase the material in a quantity that greatly exceeded my requirement - all for about the same amount of money as what I paid Diamond to send me the quantities I needed. For quantity size, perhaps I could have talked to their Maritime division vice their Aerospace division - where the same material might be marketed in smaller quantities. So here is the feedback I received from PPG: PPG Aerospace does not manufacture any fire retardant coatings at our U.S. plant located in Mojave, CA. The fire retardant paint is only available from PPG's European production plant. An overseas product requires filling out several forms for shipping/import. A PPG point of contact in Atlanta is Nicholas Castellanos, email: ncastellanos@ppg.com. Another POC is Ashley Mahon, Customer Service Specialist, ASC Atlanta, PPG Aerospace, Tel: 770-659-3041, E-Mail: Ashley.Mahon@ppg.com, Web: www.ppg.com

PN: 7330BP0802-KCH0
Description: 7330/BP802 WHITE 5 LITER TIN
Lead time approx. 8 weeks A.R.O. (drop shipped from Europe)
Price: $578.23 EA

PN: 9008B0900D-KAD0
Description: DESOTHANE HD 9008 CLEAR BUFFABLE CLEARCOAT 3LT
Lead time approx. 8 weeks A.R.O. (drop shipped from Europe)
Price:$934.44 EA

Fees: $35.00 IATA fee per shipment, $15.00 AIRPACK Fee
***ALL OF THESE ITEMS ARE SHIPPED FROM OUR EUROPEAN BRANCH DIRECT TO YOUR
LOCATION VIA FEDERAL EXPRESS PRIORITY ON YOUR COMPANY ACCOUNT NUMBER. YOUR
COMPANY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL IMPORT DUTIES, FEES, ETC. ASSOCIATED WITH THE
SHIPMENT OF THESE PRODUCTS***

Good luck with the solution that works for you - it is definitely nice to have a cowling that you can be proud of when you take it off...
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