Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

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RMarkSampson
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by RMarkSampson »

Good discussion! Flying from my home field in Florida - my worry is a shallow water nose-over. I'm sure my DA-20-C1 will protect me from impact injuries fairly well - but in three feet of water, what are my chances of getting out through the canopy if it is resting on the bottom? How much time and air pockets would we have to effect an egress? I've already decided in that situation I will look for dry land or the deepest water to provide me the best chance of pushing the canopy open if upside down in the water. Also have my doubts about the little hammer - likely to be even less effective if the cockpit is already partly flooded.
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thefoxx
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by thefoxx »

I think us 20's need a bigger hammer! Your scenario is certainly a chilling one. But would you consider that maybe you have several minutes before she sinks to the shallow bottom.

I'm curious of any smash tests to find exactly what force is required to bust through the thing.

Another thing I was thinking was if it is Plexiglass there will be some pretty large jagged and sharp edges we will have to navigate through to escape. We might get out of the canopy, but severely get cut during egress.

All this is theoretical, but these discussions spark all the what if scenarios some of us may not have thought of.
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RMarkSampson
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by RMarkSampson »

There is several videos out there - the plane does need to sink - just flip upside down in 2-3 feet of water. This pilot is likely alive because of the beach goers who sprinted into the water and righted the plane. Without the beach goers and only that dinky hammer - I'm going for either the beach or deeper water...

Theoretical "What if's" are what we train as pilots to deal with. I'm sure Sully had eyeballed the Hutson River a few times before the day he actually had to use it. Per the jagged edges, if you have time, you would have time to kick out any jagged edges. If you on the one-breath clock, or fuel is spilling and/or on fire, I'll worry about the jagged edges later. :)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1609585/p ... ped-pilot/
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Thaddeus M
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by Thaddeus M »

what are the thoughts about a tail whip type stall before flare to drag the tail then slapping the mains on the water to try to avoid the flip.
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by RMarkSampson »

Last time I came dragging in on a runway with a very high AOA - the tail touched first and the plane rebounded forward. The NLG took the shock but it was the only thing keeping the plane from nosing over and prop striking. Thus IMO dragging the tail would increase the chances of a nose over, not decrease it. I did that tail-low landing during a spot landing challenge where I allowed the spot to become more important than the landing - never again.
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by Steve »

When I was in the Navy, and had to perform underwater escapes from sinking trainers (Helo and Dilbert Dunkers), the HEEDS device was a life saver (literally)!
Helo1.jpg
Helo2.png
I'd definitely consider one of these if I spent any significant time flying over water:

http://www.heed3.com

Steve
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by RMarkSampson »

Just had a helo crash last week into the Gulf of Mexico IVO Tampa. All three made it out but last guy out was a photographer and he later told a reporter that he was out of air...lucky to make it.

https://patch.com/florida/westchase/s/g ... ulf-mexico
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Thaddeus M
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by Thaddeus M »

I think when talking about ditching in water VS landing on hard surface you have to look at how much energy we are talking about.
I can see landing at normal landing speed with high aoa and hitting the tail could rebound you forward but if were looking to ditch in water, I think
(IMO) landing on the mains will also nose over..so I would think you need to lose as much energy before any contact with the water, come to stall speed then raise the aoa.. Does anyone have other ideas on water landings w/o the nose over ? Thanks
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YCCA
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by YCCA »

The key to doing this successfully would be absolute minimum airspeed and rate of descent, wings level, when the gear hits the water. I would do it in a normal landing attitude. I think the airplane would be less likely to flip nose over, then cartwheel, if you landed in a bank with one gear grabbing first..
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Re: Theoretical Situation: Forced approach and Nose over

Post by Rich »

YCCA wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:40 pm The key to doing this successfully would be absolute minimum airspeed and rate of descent, wings level, when the gear hits the water. I would do it in a normal landing attitude. I think the airplane would be less likely to flip nose over, then cartwheel, if you landed in a bank with one gear grabbing first..
I see this phrase about airspeed and ROD all the time. In a no-engine situation, these are mutually exclusive. Minimum sink speed is considerably north of stall speed.
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