ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Any DA40 related topics

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BRS
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by BRS »

N8QQ (2006 non-waas G1000 test plane) has one mag and one EIS (helps with LOP). I've not seen it in such a long time I can't even remember which EIS - ha. It also has aftermarket Powerflow exhaust and tuned injectors. My plane had been delivered just weeks before the PF was approved. Also, I believe the later models are a bit faster than my plane (before the mod).

As Ian said, everyone flies with their own specific technique. As they say, your mileage will vary. One thing you can bank on, the new sea-level (30" MAP) will be up around 7K'. That's not turbo performance but it's a huge change none-the-less. Instead of trying to post some of the nice numbers we have which may not apply to your type of flying, I'd ask everyone to sit on the edge of your chairs and wait to get the feedback from the first few plane owners who get the conversion. Be patient.

I don't recall the +26kts that Ian mentioned, nor did I do all the test flying. But as I said before, I recall climbing 1000 fpm to 16,500 and cruising slightly LOP at 165 TAS. Though that was light (just me and bags) which probably is not unusual for many fliers. Seems like such a long time ago.
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Ian Sage »

BRS wrote:N8QQ (2006 non-waas G1000 test plane) has one mag and one EIS (helps with LOP).
. .

. . .I don't recall the +26kts that Ian mentioned, nor did I do all the test flying. . .
Brock,

Thanks for the ignition system clarification. I was at home when I typed my original reply and was getting planes mixed up.

The 26kts increase wad the single best flight that i recorded in our early testing. It is the difference between our fastest recorded level flight normally aspirated and supercharged. It was a perfectly calm, cool day of ideal conditions and it was the only flight that I ever witnessed the full 26kts increase. All flights had performance improvements but that was our best cruise result.

Since the certification testing did not require much level cruise data we did not concentate on collecting large volumes of it. As you chronicled earlier in the thread most of the official testing could more accurately be described as aircraft torture. It doesnt result in practical data from a real world use perspective but since those were the required parameters those dominated most of our flights to ensure we passed with wide margins. Margins designed to ensure continued safe operation of our systems during both normal operation and at the designed limits.

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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Pilot55 »

What about fuel flow at altitudes in teens? do you need to run the boost pump 100% of the time at these altitudes?
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Ian Sage »

Pilot55 wrote:What about fuel flow at altitudes in teens? do you need to run the boost pump 100% of the time at these altitudes?
Fuel boost pumps are only required for takeoff and landing.

Fuel flows remain the same for a given power setting. The difference is that you can maintain those power settings to higher altitudes. Normally aspirated you get full power at sea level and you can make no more than 75% power at 7000'. Supercharged you can maintain full power to roughly 7000', and 75% power to roughly 12,000'. That said, if you wanted to dial your supercharged plane back to normally aspirated power settings you would see no change in fuel flows at all . . . and no change in performance. To benefit from the supercharger simply take your normal cruise setting that you use today and add 6000-7000' to the altitude where you currently use it. That should give you an idea of what your FF will be for your preferred cruise setting.

One noteworthy item on this topic, we do turn the maximum fuel flow up a couple gallons per hour. With the increased intake air temperatures this provides both an extra margin to avoid detonation at full power settings and some additional cooling options.

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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by BRS »

As I recall, the POH vaguely says to run the fuel pumps at high altitude (which they don't define). This has not changed and most pilots, me included, run the pump as needed. I don't remember getting a low fuel pressure (yellow announcement?) very often at altitude, just in climb full throttle configurations. I don't think the fuel pressure behavior has changed much, if any, from stock.
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Antoine »

The success of this project got me thinking. Did anyone calculate the adaption of the present prop to the new engine parameters?
While max power has not increased, the DA40 now has 75% power to a much higher altitude and this is where it will shine. I believe its new sweet spot is probably around 10 to 12 K feet where oxygen is not formally mandatory in FAA skies.
I'd be curious to see how the existing prop options fare in terms of efficiency. Maybe there's something to be gained from upgrading prop blades at the next O/H ?
Prop blade changes are easily done as a field mod (Form 337) - my Extra 400 is in this situation and the performance gain was significant.
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Erik »

Antoine wrote:The success of this project got me thinking. Did anyone calculate the adaption of the present prop to the new engine parameters?
While max power has not increased, the DA40 now has 75% power to a much higher altitude and this is where it will shine. I believe its new sweet spot is probably around 10 to 12 K feet where oxygen is not formally mandatory in FAA skies.
I'd be curious to see how the existing prop options fare in terms of efficiency. Maybe there's something to be gained from upgrading prop blades at the next O/H ?
Prop blade changes are easily done as a field mod (Form 337) - my Extra 400 is in this situation and the performance gain was significant.
That's a good thought Antoine. As you know I also upgraded the prop on my Mooney Rocket by field approval to an MT prop. It is optimized for cruise performance at altitude, and it .. really does out perform the previous prop.

I bet there is a prop out there that would improve even further upon your new DA40's situation of more power at altitude.
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Re: ForcedAeroMotive: SuperCharged DA40

Post by Ian Sage »

Antoine wrote:The success of this project got me thinking. Did anyone calculate the adaption of the present prop to the new engine parameters?
While max power has not increased, the DA40 now has 75% power to a much higher altitude and this is where it will shine. I believe its new sweet spot is probably around 10 to 12 K feet where oxygen is not formally mandatory in FAA skies.
I'd be curious to see how the existing prop options fare in terms of efficiency. Maybe there's something to be gained from upgrading prop blades at the next O/H ?
Prop blade changes are easily done as a field mod (Form 337) - my Extra 400 is in this situation and the performance gain was significant.
Antoine,

As part of the STC process the answer is no. We did not consider using a different prop configuration for our testing or the certification process. Doing so would both complicate the testing processes and potentially limit the number of eligible aircraft. It is always beneficial when attacking a project like this to start with an aircraft that is as close to original as possible, then identifying compatible STC's/337's after certification is complete.

Long answer, Your observation is absolutely correct. The potential for a more effective prop at altitude. There are two potential drawbacks to keep in mind though. First, by gaining efficiency in cruise at altitude you could loose performance in other areas. Second, changing props in the hopes of creating change is an expensive hobby. I know people who have done it but the process was longer and more expensive than they had originally planned. I suppose another consideration would be that added blades almost always make the lower cowl more difficult to remove, particularly without scratching things.

Keeping all that in mind in our testing over the last 22 years we have seen people loose cruise speed and gain climb rate, loose cruise speed while gain engine cooling, some have had no performance change at all but got the "plane porn" ramp presence of a beautiful four blade prop. Some have gone back to their original props. Just need to realize that unless several people have already successfully proven a specific propeller, being an early adopter can turn into a rabbit hole of spending and testing. Absolutely worth the effort if you have that type of exploratory mind.

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ForcedAeroMotive: Update

Post by BRS »

Here is an update today from Rod....

Hello everyone,

I think we are on track to start installations at the end of the month. I let you all know as we get closer.

I the meantime we have made some changes. Actually, I got these changes approved about a week after we got the STC. I had been planning them for some time. A composite airbox instead of aluminum, redesigned mount, and most important a 5 groove supercharger belt. We have actually used this system on homebuilts for years. Very durable and efficient.

Regards,

Rod
Attachments
New Belt, mount and pullies
New Belt, mount and pullies
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SuperCharged: Gentlemen start your motors

Post by BRS »

This just in from Rod....
Hello everyone,

It has been an unusually long time getting into production but we are ready to begin installations. We will do the first few at our facility to make sure they go smoothly.

Please contact us at your convenience to schedule your supercharger installation.

And thank you for your amazing patience.

Rod

--
Rod Sage
Chief Engineer
720-348 0622
http://forcedaeromotive.com

At long last.
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