Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
You would not believe it how this bad news affected my moods!
I feel betrayed and frustrated. Panthera was the incarnation of my dream airplane and I was finally happy with a manufacturer who had the guts to go beyond lazy engineering and shoot for the moon.
I am considering writing Pipistrel a letter. So glad I was able to refrain from putting a deposit on this dream!
There were some interesting remarks up in the thread about engine options.
I have mostly theoretical knowledge of aircraft design but one thing I took home is that an airplane MUST be designed for a specific engine. Getting the balance between thrust/fuel burn/range/payload/empty weight/stall speed to work comes at this price.
If you change ONE of the parameters, you should restart the design from scratch or dramatically alter the design goals..
The worst possible change... is switching to a heavier engine that uses more fuel, thereby requiring more structure (more weight) and ruining the initial W&B design (more weight/moment in the tail) which may affect spin characteristics (more rotational inertia) thereby requiring more tail surface (more drag, structure and weight). In order to keep stall speeds in check you need more wing area ... and the list goes on and on - the perfect nightmare, that ends up costing 5 times the weight of the original addition.
This is what Pipistrel said they were doing and that's why I am very pessimistic about their prospects. But that need not be.
My honest position is that I can very well make do with a lower cruise speed. Neither 200 knots nor MOGAS are on my "must have" list.
Cabin payload, operational economy, range, safe landing characteristics, solid IFR capability and de-icing are.
The latter two are not part of Pipistrel's company culture and it seems they really need help in understanding the needs and implications.
I invite you to express your point of view on the "must haves" and " still okay" of the Panther. maybe someone from Pipistrel is reading this thread?
Hello Igor ;-)
I feel betrayed and frustrated. Panthera was the incarnation of my dream airplane and I was finally happy with a manufacturer who had the guts to go beyond lazy engineering and shoot for the moon.
I am considering writing Pipistrel a letter. So glad I was able to refrain from putting a deposit on this dream!
There were some interesting remarks up in the thread about engine options.
I have mostly theoretical knowledge of aircraft design but one thing I took home is that an airplane MUST be designed for a specific engine. Getting the balance between thrust/fuel burn/range/payload/empty weight/stall speed to work comes at this price.
If you change ONE of the parameters, you should restart the design from scratch or dramatically alter the design goals..
The worst possible change... is switching to a heavier engine that uses more fuel, thereby requiring more structure (more weight) and ruining the initial W&B design (more weight/moment in the tail) which may affect spin characteristics (more rotational inertia) thereby requiring more tail surface (more drag, structure and weight). In order to keep stall speeds in check you need more wing area ... and the list goes on and on - the perfect nightmare, that ends up costing 5 times the weight of the original addition.
This is what Pipistrel said they were doing and that's why I am very pessimistic about their prospects. But that need not be.
My honest position is that I can very well make do with a lower cruise speed. Neither 200 knots nor MOGAS are on my "must have" list.
Cabin payload, operational economy, range, safe landing characteristics, solid IFR capability and de-icing are.
The latter two are not part of Pipistrel's company culture and it seems they really need help in understanding the needs and implications.
I invite you to express your point of view on the "must haves" and " still okay" of the Panther. maybe someone from Pipistrel is reading this thread?
Hello Igor ;-)
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Antoine, I believe what Pantera originally offered (a pipe dream) and what you are looking for in a single engine airplane at this point in time is not available given the current technology. Plain and simple, we're just not there yet.
I can tell you over the past few months I have been doing quite a bit of flying in a DA42 1.7 (I got my MEI) and I have been quite impressed with the diesel to the extent that I am leaning more towards diesel than avgas. (I really didn't just say that did I? Somebody slap me. ) Prior to flying the 42 I was adamantly opposed to diesel. That has since changed.
Also, some of the superhydrophobic products currently available like "Never Wet" are showing some real break through promise that could easily make current de-icing technologies obsolete over night. In the mean time I really like how tks de-ice works.
In other words Antoine, as much as I have looked at and for other aircraft as an improvement over Diamond, I haven't found it yet. Generally speaking, Diamond's design philosophy continually draws me back to their current product line. What can I say. I'm hooked. :-D At least at the current time.
I can tell you over the past few months I have been doing quite a bit of flying in a DA42 1.7 (I got my MEI) and I have been quite impressed with the diesel to the extent that I am leaning more towards diesel than avgas. (I really didn't just say that did I? Somebody slap me. ) Prior to flying the 42 I was adamantly opposed to diesel. That has since changed.
Also, some of the superhydrophobic products currently available like "Never Wet" are showing some real break through promise that could easily make current de-icing technologies obsolete over night. In the mean time I really like how tks de-ice works.
In other words Antoine, as much as I have looked at and for other aircraft as an improvement over Diamond, I haven't found it yet. Generally speaking, Diamond's design philosophy continually draws me back to their current product line. What can I say. I'm hooked. :-D At least at the current time.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
+1
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
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Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Aart
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
SLAP!! Here you go Tommy. And that if for not having discovered Diesel engines earlier
Glad you like the DA42.
I have been following the Panthera project with interest. It is always nice to see real entrepeneurs aiming high. The latest developments are indeed disappointing though. I guess Antoine said it all. The other thing to keep in mind is that deep pockets are needed to develop anything that flies, and I don't know about the depth of Pipistrel's. Although everything has its limits of course, Dries has some deep pockets and a real drive to make his company a success and that gives me a good feeling.
Glad you like the DA42.
I have been following the Panthera project with interest. It is always nice to see real entrepeneurs aiming high. The latest developments are indeed disappointing though. I guess Antoine said it all. The other thing to keep in mind is that deep pockets are needed to develop anything that flies, and I don't know about the depth of Pipistrel's. Although everything has its limits of course, Dries has some deep pockets and a real drive to make his company a success and that gives me a good feeling.
Aart
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DA42.332 PH-CCD LESB (Palma de Mallorca, Spain)
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Has anyone read something else about this news posted two days ago on another source than Flyingmag ?
I don't see anything on the blogs I follow. Nothing on Pipistrel's website either.
I find that surprising considering that the Panthera is a hot project. It was mentioned in February's AOPA PILOT beside Flight Design's and TECNAM's four seaters.
I don't see anything on the blogs I follow. Nothing on Pipistrel's website either.
I find that surprising considering that the Panthera is a hot project. It was mentioned in February's AOPA PILOT beside Flight Design's and TECNAM's four seaters.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Antoine hit the nail on the head. I read that release with a sinking feeling.
I am waiting for something similar from the French company working on the amphibian that looks so wonderful.
Icon has already had a number of similar announcements and I don't know what Cirrus' connection to them will ultimately mean. But with many of these pie-in-the-sky sort of projects it's just a game of waiting until you hear the inevitable correction to reality.
If I ever got involved with one of these companies I would suggest we announce that we are building a Cub clone for $1m that will climb slower and cruise at half the speed of the original, with only a single seat for the pilot, delivered in a decade.
Then we can turn around and over-deliver in less time for less money.
I am waiting for something similar from the French company working on the amphibian that looks so wonderful.
Icon has already had a number of similar announcements and I don't know what Cirrus' connection to them will ultimately mean. But with many of these pie-in-the-sky sort of projects it's just a game of waiting until you hear the inevitable correction to reality.
If I ever got involved with one of these companies I would suggest we announce that we are building a Cub clone for $1m that will climb slower and cruise at half the speed of the original, with only a single seat for the pilot, delivered in a decade.
Then we can turn around and over-deliver in less time for less money.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Colin,
You cannot compare Pipistrel with ACOYA or ICON.
Pipistrel has built and sold a lot of nice airplanes for a long time, which is not the case of the two other mentioned companies.
Pipistrel has set several world records with their Sinus/Virus. I've tried that LSA, it is very nice. Look at their numbers. There are lots of Pipistrel airplanes flying around the world.
Pipistrel IMHO is a serious and capable company (though not very big). Maybe were they too optimistic with the Panthera ?
Hopefully some entrepeneurs have dreams, not daydreams, they take risks, especially if they don't have deep pockets. They are really creating new planes and moving things. I saw the Panthera last year at Friedrichshaffen, no ACOYA, no ICON.
Maybe they won't succeed but they do try. Respect. What did people say about Wright brothers hundred years ago ?
I am eager to hear their comments about this issue. So far, only a post on Flyingmag blog.
BTW, Pipistrel is the plane maker who revived my flying passion (after a long pause) when I saw their Taurus at an exhibition in Brussels. In fact I should hate them for that
You cannot compare Pipistrel with ACOYA or ICON.
Pipistrel has built and sold a lot of nice airplanes for a long time, which is not the case of the two other mentioned companies.
Pipistrel has set several world records with their Sinus/Virus. I've tried that LSA, it is very nice. Look at their numbers. There are lots of Pipistrel airplanes flying around the world.
Pipistrel IMHO is a serious and capable company (though not very big). Maybe were they too optimistic with the Panthera ?
Hopefully some entrepeneurs have dreams, not daydreams, they take risks, especially if they don't have deep pockets. They are really creating new planes and moving things. I saw the Panthera last year at Friedrichshaffen, no ACOYA, no ICON.
Maybe they won't succeed but they do try. Respect. What did people say about Wright brothers hundred years ago ?
I am eager to hear their comments about this issue. So far, only a post on Flyingmag blog.
BTW, Pipistrel is the plane maker who revived my flying passion (after a long pause) when I saw their Taurus at an exhibition in Brussels. In fact I should hate them for that
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Tommy/Aart: I can relate to this. The thing that brought me to Diamond was the Thielert diesel.
Coming from an O 360, I felt that it would deliver much more safety among other things (carb heat anyone?). It was in 2007. It took me 5 scary flight hours to change my mind.
I was already in love with the DA40 so I switched to the Lycoming version and bought my bird in 2009.
Since then, Centurions have come a long way and I guess they are fine now (except for maintenance costs I suppose?). That's why I suggested Pipistrel consider a Centurion - of course they would get less power ( but the loss will be reduced at altitude) and a much smoother running and efficient engine. The Pipistrel would probably do around 165 KTAS on 6.5 GPH with a 155 HP Thielert and it would easily achieve the 1000 NM goal. The only problem would probably be initial climb rate at sea level.
Colin/Dave: The plane I dream of almost already exists. It only needs to be finished. It should probably be called the DA40 VI.
Diamond have the FIKI system already designed (in the 42). They have shown in the DA 42 VI that they CAN make this airframe much lighter and more efficient (aka faster). But Diamond apparently cannot see a business case to further developing the DA40-180, That is the problem, not technology,
Jean: I make the same observation. Aerobuzz are usually on top of this kind of news. It would be a borderline marketing stunt if it turns out Pipistrel let a hoax out to generate this buzz - at least it worked
Colin I really like the idea of a $ 1 Million Cub!
And finally, I agree with Tommy and Dave: 200 KTAS on 10 GPH is and always was a pipe dream (or plain marketing bs) - Make it 180 on 13 GPH and I'm still buying the (de-iced) Panthera. This is where I had set my expectation and I fully agree that the technology and legal constraints won't allow more. Not in a certified plane.
Coming from an O 360, I felt that it would deliver much more safety among other things (carb heat anyone?). It was in 2007. It took me 5 scary flight hours to change my mind.
I was already in love with the DA40 so I switched to the Lycoming version and bought my bird in 2009.
Since then, Centurions have come a long way and I guess they are fine now (except for maintenance costs I suppose?). That's why I suggested Pipistrel consider a Centurion - of course they would get less power ( but the loss will be reduced at altitude) and a much smoother running and efficient engine. The Pipistrel would probably do around 165 KTAS on 6.5 GPH with a 155 HP Thielert and it would easily achieve the 1000 NM goal. The only problem would probably be initial climb rate at sea level.
Colin/Dave: The plane I dream of almost already exists. It only needs to be finished. It should probably be called the DA40 VI.
Diamond have the FIKI system already designed (in the 42). They have shown in the DA 42 VI that they CAN make this airframe much lighter and more efficient (aka faster). But Diamond apparently cannot see a business case to further developing the DA40-180, That is the problem, not technology,
Jean: I make the same observation. Aerobuzz are usually on top of this kind of news. It would be a borderline marketing stunt if it turns out Pipistrel let a hoax out to generate this buzz - at least it worked
Colin I really like the idea of a $ 1 Million Cub!
And finally, I agree with Tommy and Dave: 200 KTAS on 10 GPH is and always was a pipe dream (or plain marketing bs) - Make it 180 on 13 GPH and I'm still buying the (de-iced) Panthera. This is where I had set my expectation and I fully agree that the technology and legal constraints won't allow more. Not in a certified plane.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Antoine what scared you about the diesel DA40?
I agree with your analysis of the future of Pipistrel following this announcement.
I like your idea of a DA40 VI. A DA40 with retractable gear, similar (all) the aero treatments of the DA42VI, and a turbo engine could be very fast up high.
Yes, a diesel would be very efficient.
If I were choosing, I would choose the tornado alley treatment.
http://www.taturbo.com/frames.html
They turbo-normalize a 200HP Lycoming IO-360A1B6 with brilliant baffling for excellent cooling - so that even a relatively draggy Cessna Cardinal does 177TAS at 11gph. I bet the retractable DA40 VI with that exact engine combination would be a 190 to 195 airplane - with TKS. Call it the DA40TR VI (For turbo retractable).
I agree with your analysis of the future of Pipistrel following this announcement.
I like your idea of a DA40 VI. A DA40 with retractable gear, similar (all) the aero treatments of the DA42VI, and a turbo engine could be very fast up high.
Yes, a diesel would be very efficient.
If I were choosing, I would choose the tornado alley treatment.
http://www.taturbo.com/frames.html
They turbo-normalize a 200HP Lycoming IO-360A1B6 with brilliant baffling for excellent cooling - so that even a relatively draggy Cessna Cardinal does 177TAS at 11gph. I bet the retractable DA40 VI with that exact engine combination would be a 190 to 195 airplane - with TKS. Call it the DA40TR VI (For turbo retractable).
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?
Thanks Aart. I needed that.Aart wrote:SLAP!! Here you go Tommy. And that if for not having discovered Diesel engines earlier
Glad you like the DA42.