Landing Flaps on Base or Final?

[gordsh]

Ever since I started my flight training I was told to and always practiced putting in the landing flaps on Base. On Sunday I was doing some solo circuits and on my first landing I forgot to put in the flaps during Base and so I flipped the switch on short final once I did a quick check. Well it turns out that (to me) this one of my smoother approaches and landing. So I repeated the process....landing flaps engaged during short final (not base) and again another smooth approach and landing.

So why do I say the landings were better...

Well, before I would have to add power on short final as the plane sinks a lot as soon as the landing flaps are engaged on Base. So by the time I get around to final I am adding power to add some altitude and then pulling the power as I get closer. I should add that for final I am pitching for 75 knots all the way. However when I added the flaps on short final I did not need to add any power at all, simply pulling the power slowly back as I approached threshold.

Because I only have experience with one plane, the DA40, and only 50 hours as a Student PPL, I wanted to ask if this is how most experienced DA40 pilots approach landing flaps. Perhaps it is the same for all planes and not DA40 specific.

Do you "generally" recommend landing flaps on base or short final?

[waynemcc999]

My personal preference:
-- first notch of flaps (T/O) at end of downwind, abeam the numbers, or on instrument approaches just before the final approach fix
-- second notch of flaps (Landing) -- only if low winds or short runway -- on short final, once the runway is "made"

On reasonable length runways and on instrument approach landings, I only use one notch of flaps.

[CFIDave]

I only teach putting Landing (full) Flaps in on short final: when you have the field "made." Otherwise it's T/O (half) Flaps starting abeam the numbers, all the way until short final. This permits:
1. Only having to touch the throttle once before crossing the runway threshold -- when abeam the numbers reduce it to around 11-12" MAP and try not to adjust it
2. A plane better configured for an unanticipated "go around" with just T/O flaps in.

[OriensFlight]

Your first notch of flaps will give you an increase in lift for a small increase in drag. This will result in a slightly slower stall speed and generally a more stabilized approach. While in the pattern I put in T/O flaps as soon as I'm on the downwind once I've reached pattern altitude. When entering the pattern I put in T/O flaps on the 45 before turning downwind. You can also choose to do it after your power adjustment abeam the numbers while you're still on the downwind, just do it wherever it feels natural in your flow. Personally, I like to limit the number of switches I'm flipping and configuration changes I'm making on base and final. I like to have myself configured for landing before I turn base, that way I can choose whether or not to use LDG flaps on base or final or not at all. The second notch of flaps increases lift, but it also increases drag a lot, so you don't want to use it until you're sure you'll make it to the runway. (Given that the DA40's flaps are electrically powered, you should be able to land with flaps UP. Practice that with your instructor.)

Every time you touch the flaps you're changing the configuration of your aircraft's wing. Each time you do so you have to get used to that change. I suspect you'll feel more comfortable turning downwind to base and base to final if you've set T/O flaps early on the downwind.

Enjoy flying the Diamond, it's a great trainer. Once you fly a Cessna 172 you'll see how much effect the 'barn doors' can have. There you'll set the first notch of flaps on downwind, second notch on base, and the final notch on final.

-
Hans
N556LU - 2007 DA40 XL 40.763 @ RAM Aviation in Santa Rosa, California

[gordsh]

This is great feedback, I just wanted to ensure I was not developing a bad habit/practice. Part of the difficulty I faced and still face is that non of the instructors at my field are experts on the DA40 and so they are also learning the airplane (my airplane) as they are teaching me. OK, going forward I will adopt landing flaps on short final. Thanks everyone.

[Rich]

Every time a discussion like this comes up, you see procedures all over the map. In a normal pattern at my home airport (pattern is 800 AGL BTW) and no traffic it's MAP to 8.5 and T/O flaps abeam the numbers, LDG flaps right after turning base. This usually has me around 70 knots on base, so I adjust from there, shoot for 60 knots into the flare. I use LDG flaps virtually always. Can't see why not. I've had occasion to do full-flap go-arounds a couple of times in the DA40 and there was no real problem. Of course, I typically wind up landing at well below MLW. At my home airport the runways are way longer than I need, so I've got the runway made when I turn downwind, really. And no point flaring at the numbers, as I have almost half a mile to go to the first turnoff. Of course, at other airports I don't always have this luxury. But in any case I like to keep the approach tight and fairly steep without all kinds of speed to bleed off after the flare (which the LDG flaps help with, BTW).

Now lots of planes are different, with respect to flaps. Long ago, flying 172's, 182's and 150's full flaps were reserved for short or soft field landings (and soft field takeoffs). Those babies went down to 40 degrees, not the wussy 30 degree limit the post 1990 models have. And going around with 40 degrees in a 150 (which we did practice) was a complex operation, especially at the 8000-ft+ DA I typically dealt with in those days. But the flaps on a Tri-Pacer are basically a formality

I don't know what you're being taught, but a number of us older coots are observing that it seems it's become standard practice for flight schools to be teaching excessively wide patterns. Two-mile finals, I kid you not. Following these folks I will slow down more on downwind so I don't repeat their sins and can turn base at a less absurd distance.

[Lou]

Gord - another reason to use LDG on short final is that it will be consistent with what you do when you get your IFR. The best advice I received was to get my IFR immediately after my PPL and if you haven't thought about it, I would really encourage you to do so.

[gordsh]

Louis, yes indeed, I will be going for my IFR right away. I watch many videos on YouTube of pilots doing IFR flights and they seem way more exciting than VFR.

[gordsh]

Rich, the funny thing is that in the DA40 my instructor has my patterns a bit wider than that of the 172's pattern. Basically he said its because the DA40 glides more and is harder to slow down. Not knowing much myself I follow his advise. I measured the points a few times and I can say the pattern is about 1.4 nautical miles at each corner meaning a 1.4 mile final. With the 172's its about a mile or a bit less (from what I calculate).

One thing I will say to anyone who decides to learn flying on their own DA40 is, ... make sure your instructor has a good amount of hours in a DA40 before starting to instruct you. In my case none of the instructors had flown a DA40 before mine and though not difficult to fly, I think they are still learning about the plane as am I.

[dgger]

another reason to use LDG on short final is that it will be consistent with what you do when you get your IFR.

This one is interesting. Admittedly, I never did IFR training in the U.S., but here in Europe I was taught to follow the concept of a stabilized approach i.e. having sinkrate, heading, and speed arrested while being fully configured for landing prior to sinking through 1.000ft AGL (in IMC) or go around. The reason being precisely to avoid configuration changes on short final.