NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Any DA40 related topics

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Rich »

I don’t know what you weigh, but if I lean on the tail of my much lighter plane my feet merely graze the ground. The nose is in the air but I can not move the plane at all.

And I am simply stating that, based on the Poh I can carry loads the NG can not.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
CFIDave
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N333GX
Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 1473 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by CFIDave »

Rich, your early (2002) steam-gauge Lycoming DA40 with 40-gallon tanks does not have a W&B representative of the installed base of G1000 DA40s with 50-gallon fuel tanks, let alone an Austro DA40 NG with G1000 NXi built 17 years later. And at less than 200 lbs I can turn any Lycoming DA40 on the ramp by pushing down on the tail to raise the nose gear off the ground. :)
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Rich »

CFIDave wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 am Rich, your early (2002) steam-gauge Lycoming DA40 with 40-gallon tanks does not have a W&B representative of the installed base of G1000 DA40s with 50-gallon fuel tanks, let alone an Austro DA40 NG with G1000 NXi built 17 years later. And at less than 200 lbs I can turn any Lycoming DA40 on the ramp by pushing down on the tail to raise the nose gear off the ground. :)
Your first statement is true. And I believe my comparison depicts that. Though it’s worth noting I’m not totally unique. The tricky part is that it isn’t just the 50 gallon deal, it’s the rearward weight shift and extra lard ALL the new DA40’s have acquired. The NG has inherited the lard, it isn’t just the engine, though the forward weight shift works in its favor. In this comparison your position is reasonable. But the comparison is aided by a specific erosion in the Lycoming model’s capabilities in this area. There are models on the wiki that outweigh mine by over 100 pounds and rearward weight shift by 3 inches. Of course thankfully they all have the MTOW boost and presumably the PF. But so do I (bwa ha ha). Recent mods have conspired to reduce my empty weight. And a couple more pending will likely further that trend.

At 175-ish pounds I can not move my DA40 by putting my weight on the tail. This is a fact. It takes all of my weight to lift the nose, leaving me with no traction for my feet.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
First Name: Colin
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N972RD
Airports: KFHR
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 527 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Colin »

At 165lbs when I first got my DA40, I was able to not only lean on the tail to turn the plane (my favorite trick was to nose directly up to the fuel pumps, fill, and then spin it 180 with that move), but I actually would do that to get into my tie down. Pull up 90 degrees to the spot, hop out and, facing forward, throw an arm over the tail, put a little weight on it so that the nose wheel was off the ground, then I'd spin to the right and duck walk backwards into the spot. (I looked like a young Chuck Berry with an airplane under my arm instead of a guitar.)

I have been less successful doing this with the DA42.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
Ian Sage
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:29 am
First Name: Ian
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: NONE
Airports: KAPA
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Ian Sage »

I'm late to the conversation but another benefit in favor of the Lycoming powered aircraft is the current and potential future aftermarket STC options. In much the same way that you can find a qualified Lycoming mechanic at almost any maintenance shop in the world, the widespread adoption of the O-360/IO-360 family makes it an easy choice for people with good ideas to bring new products to market. While I am obviously partial the the newly STC'd supercharger option there are also STCs for the Lycoming engine ranging from injectors, to starters, electronic ignitions, to props and more. Depending on your mindset and budget there are far more options to help make your 100LL powered plane into exactly what you want.

To the topic of weight, I personally have not had the opportunity to spend time with an NG so I can not speak to those. However, as a fairly stout individual I have yet to find a Lycoming powered DA-40 that I could not move around with relative ease by using the tail to lift the nose. My 16 year old son struggles to lift the nose of any DA-40 and maneuvering it is impossible for him.
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Boatguy »

The OP's question is difficult to answer since I don't think anyone has owned both planes, though some people have owned a DA40 180 and a DA42 or 62 with Thielert or Austro engines. Thus this comes down to owners of one or the other explaining why their DA40 is better.

I flew both the IO-360 and NG, studied the AFMs (from Diamond web site), compared them to a C182 and SR20, then ordered an NG. I just took delivery and we flew to California from London. So here are a few data points and my reasoning on the purchase decision. The IO-360 advocates can fill in the numbers for their planes.

1) Plenty of useful load for my wife and I; my normal mission.

Empty weight 2,034lbs
MTOW = 2,888
Useful load with 4.5 hrs fuel (3.5hr 75% cruise + 1hr reserve) = 674lbs
Normal TOW with my wife, myself, 70lbs of luggage and 4.5hrs of fuel = 2,626

2) Climb from SL to 10,000' with normal load (ISA): 14min / 22nm / 1.9g

3) Climb from 10,000' to 14,000' with normal load (ISA): 6min / 10nm / .9g

4) TO roll at my normal load and a DA of 9,000': 2,300' (700m) - that's KTRK @ 30C.

5) It is a heavier plane with higher stall speeds; that doesn't make it less safe. I know a pilot who jumps from an SR22T to a Citabria to a Citation. He carries cheat sheets and flies the numbers. Like any plane, the NG's envelope must be respected.

6) Higher stall speed than the IO-360 does mean that the speed on final is higher and thus it has a longer landing distance. At my normal landing weight after three hours of flight the landing roll is 960' (SL/ ISA) per the AFM. I'm not a test pilot and I may not hit the numbers so give me another 100yds and call it 1,300'. It's not going to keep me out of any airport where I plan to land. I didn't think I was buying a bush plane.

I live in Northern California where going anywhere means climbing over mountains and the distances are generally fairly long. Turbocharging is invaluable. FADEC simplicity, less vibration, and lower fuel burn of less expensive fuel is icing on the cake.
User avatar
AndrewM
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:05 pm
First Name: Andrew
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N897KC
Airports:
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 75 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by AndrewM »

Russ,

Thanks for the update, and congrat's on your shiny new plane!

With regards to the weights you posted, what options did you load into the plane? Aircon etc??
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Boatguy »

My options and their weight were:

GFC700 / 24lbs
SVT / 0lbs
GTX345R / 0lbs (another box and no weight? hmmmm)
Electric pedals / 4lbs

Total options = 28lbs. With the exception of the SVT I don't consider any of these to really be optional.

I did not get the factory A/C which is 88lbs. There was lots of discussion about this, both regarding the need for A/C and whether to get factory or third party. I concluded that I didn't need it in California and I certainly didn't want the additional 88lbs. We'll see how it works out when I fly to NV, AZ, etc. That said, I'm working on the design for a custom hat (nip and tuck some hats I own) and I will be watching closely to see how the early adopters like the Jet Shades. I see you are in Tampa which is probably a whole different story for A/C!
User avatar
A Dopo
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:39 pm
First Name: Juan
Aircraft Type: DA40NG
Aircraft Registration: N195DA
Airports: KCEU
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by A Dopo »

Well, looks like it's a done deal, series number 40.NC035 just was born. Next step is to arrange for a factory tour, hop in and fly to KCEU :) It will be interesting to find out just what it's like to live with a NG. Maybe I'll start a blog or thread on this so others will be enlightened.

Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. Gotta love these forms.....

Oh, and any tips on great restaurants, best hotel, or cool things to do in London, ON will be appreciated.
Attachments
FAA U.S. CofA 40.NC035 (N195DA).pdf
(648.28 KiB) Downloaded 148 times
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Boatguy »

That was quick! I've got NC034 and took delivery a month ago.

Best Western is close to the factory, not necessarily "best", but it is convenient. Can't speak to great restaurants, although the airport restaurant was remarkably good for an airport restaurant. Coolest thing I did was a great flight with a factory test pilot.

Congratulations! Please let us know if you start a blog.
Post Reply