NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Any DA40 related topics

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Antoine
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Antoine »

Mdm0515 wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:03 pmBut all numbers are basically +10kts, Vso, landing etc, vs the Lycoming ride.
checkmate...
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Rich
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Rich »

No, I've never flown one. Yet I have been critical of the excess weight the NG's carry. There are flights I've made that could not have been made in a DA40NG, because of the very narrow CG range. (The narrowest of all of the DA40 variants, BTW.)
BUT
That's comparing my plane, which is from the early couple of years with empty weights barely above (and sometimes even below) 1700 lbs. The newer -180's are tricked out (from the factory plus owner-added stuff) to a much higher degree and there are examples in the Wiki that outweigh mine by over 100 lbs. Many would have problems with some of my trips just due to useful load. All of the ones with 50-gallon tanks would be constrained by CG limits and could not carry the full 50 gallons.

The NG just represents the current worst case of being loaded up without regard to weight. It's just like we humans - a few cupcakes here, chocolate cake there, add some beer - and now you're Oliver Hardy.

So comparing the latest DA40-180's you'd be likely to buy (fully tricked out, one presumes) to the NG in terms of actual stuff you haul into the sky every time has less of a weight difference than using the older birds as comparison. I actually keep trimming mine down, after years of adding this and that, to where it's approaching the initially delivered weight of 1701 lbs. The next round of likely goodies will take it below 1700.
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Don
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Don »

When I ordered my 4th new star, a 2010 XLS, I had Diamond build it with the 40 gallon tanks and no added ballast to the nose.
This gives me a 3.5 hour endurance plus 30 minute reserve which is stretching the limits of passenger's bladders. That said, I have flown two hour flights with four adults on board and still within W&B limits. I am thinking of replacing my 2010 in 2020 with the IO-360 and I would again order it from Diamond with the 40 gallon tanks. It is the best solution for my particular mission.
Last edited by Don on Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by CFIDave »

Yes the NG weighs more, but it also has a higher max gross weight, so it actually has a higher useful load than many Lycoming DA40s. The NG has a beefed-up composite structure to handle more weight, with an extra rib stiffener near where the main gear leg joins the wing stub.

Among Lycoming DA40s, early (non-G1000) DA40s tended to be lighter but relatively nose-heavy, whereas later (G1000) DA40s are more tail-heavy due to the LRU equipment rack located under the rear luggage compartment. But this varies depending on whether the aircraft has an aluminum vs. composite prop, nose ballast, extended-range (50 gal) fuel tanks that limited back seat weight for spin recovery, installation of a TAS600 in the tail, air conditioning, etc.

I owned a 2008 XLS with composite MT prop and no nose ballast. That gave a greater useful load, but we could never put more than one light passenger in the back seat, and we had to put our luggage into the back seat (instead of using the baggage compartment) to avoid exceeding the aft CG limit. When parked, if you climbed into the back seat to retrieve something (without somebody sitting in the front) the plane could fall on its tail. The good news is that this made the plane very easy to drag back into the hangar by myself without needing a tug or tow-bar.
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by A Dopo »

Did the test flight yesterday impressions to follow. On plane headed to St Pete for IndyCar race- any DA owners in the area PM or email me. Jdavidf1@gmail.com

Also everytime I try to post pictures it simply adds an image icon. WTH? I've searched the forum for answers so please point me in the right direction. It does not work like some of the other forums I'm on. Thanks
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by A Dopo »

Image this is what its doing.
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by CFIDave »

I experienced another advantage of the 40NG over the Lycoming DA40: This week I got to fly (with its pilot owner) a new DA40NG from the London factory to California, with strong winter headwinds flying westbound, icing conditions, and major turbulence over the mountains.

I had previously flown my Lycoming DA40 across the US to CA in the summer, so it was an interesting comparison.

Due to pireps of SEVERE turbulence 9-11,000 feet above Albuquerque, we were forced to turn further south and attempt crossing the mountains of New Mexico east of El Paso. Cruising on an IFR flight plan at 10,000 feet with 40 knot headwinds and unlimited visibility, we needed maximum continuous power (92% of 170 hp) of the turbocharged Austro diesel to cross a mountain ridge without losing altitude. During a mountain wave downdraft the airspeed bled off to 100 knots with the plane essentially "hanging on the prop." A DA40NG will normally climb at 7-800 fpm at 10,000 feet, so losing airspeed to hold 10K altitude meant we were in a much stronger downdraft than that. Of course once we crossed the ridge we experienced a major updraft that required the GFC700 autopilot to pitch down while still perfectly holding 10,000 feet. The "rule of thumb" for crossing mountain ridges is not to attempt with more than 20 knots of winds, so we were prepared to execute a U-turn if our airspeed dropped any further, and we maintained 3000 feet clearance above the ridge.

There's no way we could have safely made that flight with a normally-aspirated Lycoming IO-360 -- it would have provided about 60% power at 10,000 feet with a climb rate of only 200-300 fpm. We probably would have been stuck on the ground for multiple days waiting for the winds and weather to improve.

Some day it may be possible to retrofit a turbocharger to a Lycoming DA40, but until then I'd much rather be flying a turbodiesel DA40NG over the mountains of the American west.
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by A Dopo »

CFI Dave thanks for the input. Finally got back from the St. Pete Grand Prix. Any car guys on here, I highly recommend it. Now for the NG. I cannot imagine an easier, more competent aircraft to fly. Much less vibration, noise, and ease of operation. Just super stupid simple. Check out the videos on the super simple run up and single lever control, and the Garmin was lighting fast. So we are looking at faster, quieter, less vibration, simpler, and to top it off Jet A. And it has those cool winglets and comes standard with the taller tundra gear. The only thing I did not like was the goofy looking cover on the front landing gear. So ready for a factory tour now and ready to pull the trigger. BTW, the only thing that would be more appealing might be a 165 knot blower out front.....Hmm. I see these kids in these 1000 hp diesel trucks....Hmmm.

https://youtu.be/qRnZ1LccVVY

https://youtu.be/lZucI0DTQPw
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Rick
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Rick »

A Dopo wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:19 amhttps://youtu.be/qRnZ1LccVVY
I don't understand why, if they redesigned the nose wheel cover, they didn't solve the aerodynamic issue with it. Look at the first video, especially at the 0:47 mark, but all throughout it's still flying cocked way to the left. It seems Diamond doesn't even notice this any more, even in their own promotional videos and photographs...
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Chris B
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Re: NG40 VS IO-360 real user pros and cons appreciated

Post by Chris B »

A Dopo wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:19 amSo ready for a factory tour now and ready to pull the trigger.
I prefer the DA40-180 trade-offs, but it sounds like the NG is a good match for you. Enjoy! :thumbsup:

Just be sure to insist on owning (/carrying) the ECU reader/reset tool. Maybe this has changed, but AFAIK this tool is normally only available to service centers.

IMO you don't want to be stuck somewhere after an ECU "failure" without any ability to diagnose or reset the ECU. With this tool you can read the codes and confer with your mechanic for diagnosis. Otherwise most local shops will not be able to help.

Search "ECU failure" for context.

Chris
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