Aviation oil recommendation
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- smoss
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
No camguard needed, that would be the point of using Victory
Steve
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- Chris B
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
Aviation Consumer's November 2019 issue (link to abbreviated introduction) includes a lengthy article by Paul Millner (retired Chevron chemical engineer) about the history & chemistry of the Lycoming anti-wear additives, including Phillips Victory oil. He follows-up in the March 2020 issue addressing questions from readers.
Summary: The original Lycoming anti-wear additive (TCP) was introduced to solve an acute wear issue with the O-320-H2AD engine using low-cost automotive-style lifters, but TCP neurotoxicity became increasingly problematic. So the industry mostly moved to a related compound (TPP) as a substitute. Unfortunately, while less toxic to humans, TPP releases phosphoric acid in the engine. This attacks copper & seals.
Paul's recommendation: Phillips XC 20W-50 plus Camguard unless your engine is required by AD to use the Lycoming additive.
In a September 2020 webinar - that unfortunately is not available online - Paul indicated that the only exception would be for very cold operation (e.g., Canada in winter) where Shell semi-synthetic 15W-50 (plus Camguard) is less likely to solidify in the oil filter. Paul also asserts that in addition to improved wear resistance, Camguard helps reduce corrosion, blow-by deposits & seal degradation.
From a recent BeechTalk thread on Phillips XC vs. Victory:
Chris
Summary: The original Lycoming anti-wear additive (TCP) was introduced to solve an acute wear issue with the O-320-H2AD engine using low-cost automotive-style lifters, but TCP neurotoxicity became increasingly problematic. So the industry mostly moved to a related compound (TPP) as a substitute. Unfortunately, while less toxic to humans, TPP releases phosphoric acid in the engine. This attacks copper & seals.
Paul's recommendation: Phillips XC 20W-50 plus Camguard unless your engine is required by AD to use the Lycoming additive.
In a September 2020 webinar - that unfortunately is not available online - Paul indicated that the only exception would be for very cold operation (e.g., Canada in winter) where Shell semi-synthetic 15W-50 (plus Camguard) is less likely to solidify in the oil filter. Paul also asserts that in addition to improved wear resistance, Camguard helps reduce corrosion, blow-by deposits & seal degradation.
From a recent BeechTalk thread on Phillips XC vs. Victory:
Paul Millner wrote:I'm pleased that you read and understood my article! I think you are doing it exactly right... in any case, you're doing exactly what I'm doing... Phillips XC 20-50 and Camguard... and staying far, far away from Phillips Victory.
Victory is *great* if and ONLY if the AD applies to your engine... but unless you have a 172 with the O320H2AD engine, it's very very unlikely that using Victory or other TCP/TPP containing oils is a good deal.
Chris
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
For us CONTINENTAL AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGIES™ engine owners, there is a SERVICE INFORMATION LETTER, SIL19-04. SUBJECT: Oil Brand Selection. PURPOSE: To recommend maintaining a consistent ashless-dispersant oil brand (qualified under MHS-24) for engine service, after break-in, until overhaul. MODELS AFFECTED: All Continental Aerospace Technologies aviation gasoline (AvGas) engines.
Continental Aerospace Technologies™ (Continental®) would like to remind our customers and maintenance partners the ashless-dispersant oil specification for Continental aircraft piston engines is MHS-24. The latest version of publication M-0, Standard Practice Maintenance Manual,
Chapter 3, lists qualified oil suppliers and brands which meet the requirements of MHS-24.
I have a 2016 version of the M-0. I've attached a PDF of the SIL and the M-0, Table 3-1
Continental Aerospace Technologies™ (Continental®) would like to remind our customers and maintenance partners the ashless-dispersant oil specification for Continental aircraft piston engines is MHS-24. The latest version of publication M-0, Standard Practice Maintenance Manual,
Chapter 3, lists qualified oil suppliers and brands which meet the requirements of MHS-24.
I have a 2016 version of the M-0. I've attached a PDF of the SIL and the M-0, Table 3-1
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- dwurfel
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
Chris, thanks so much. Phillips XC 20W-50 plus Camguard is the direction I am going. Although my oil analyses have looked good I still think it is a good shift. Again, thanks everybody for the education.
- Roxi5m9
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
I was just convinced by my mechanic to switch from Phillips XC (I fly 200 hours a year and do not use cam guard), to Aeroshell 15/50. I find this debate to be so worn out. Lycoming and Blackstone will not recommend one over the other which ultimately says to me that they are both just as good. If there was ANY evidence after millions of hours of engine/oil use of one oil being better than the other, we would know.
Quick question, a few people have mentioned they use Aeroshell 15/50 AND camguard. I was under the understanding that Aeroshell has several additives in it already and camguard is basically already in there. Anyone have any info on this?
Quick question, a few people have mentioned they use Aeroshell 15/50 AND camguard. I was under the understanding that Aeroshell has several additives in it already and camguard is basically already in there. Anyone have any info on this?
N597RA 40.444
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- Rich
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
Camguard isn't necessarily the same, but the Aeroshell has the Lycoming LW 16702 additive in it, At least superficially, they both address the same issue. Namely, cam follower spalling. For most engines this is a factor for airplanes that wind up with periods of inactivity. BTW, you can actually get the Lycoming additive separately and add it to any arbitrary oil. It was specifically developed and is stated to be required for the O-320 variant that the early 70's C-172 came with. Here's a data point:
My plane has always undergone periods of inactivity for one reason or another. For years I used the Aeroshell with no additive and had no problem. Then I came to switch the XC 20W50 for no good reason, actually, but still did not use any additives. A couple of years after the switch the aforementioned spalling and a $15K engine teardown - at about 1140 tach hours. Right after, I moved down here to Oregon and my mechanic recommended the Philips/Camguard approach and 5+ years later everything is fine. No metal in the filter and excellent Blackstone reports.
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- dmloftus
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
Aeroshell W100 Spring thru Fall, Aeroshell 15W50 in the colder months, every 40 hours. Tried and true.
- Davestation
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
Not sure if this was already mentioned... shell 15w50 already contains the Lycoming additive, so I would not double down with camguard. Same thing with w100+
Lots of contention over which is better between camguard and the Lycoming “original” - all I know is the latter is significantly more expensive for not being a clear winner. If you’re to use it at all, might as well get it premixed with one of the above, or victory. Although like others have said, the jury is still out on victory... X/C is a pretty solid performer, so I have no reason to believe victory is anything but essentially X/C premixed.
Of course X/C plus an additive is significantly more expensive than the other premixed options, so if you can’t decide on brand except that you know you want an additive, I’d go for W100+ when and where it’s warm enough for it.
It’s not exactly science based but I’ve seen thousands upon thousands of flight school hours with X/C alone, and pretty much all at 100hr oil change intervals (yikes), I call that the gauntlet. There were two or three instances where cams where shot at TBO, but no noticeable performance issues beforehand (all non-roller engines...) and one instance of a bad cam requiring tear down before TBO. I don’t think an additive would make much difference in this environment though, these planes flew literally every day for the life of the engine.
Lots of contention over which is better between camguard and the Lycoming “original” - all I know is the latter is significantly more expensive for not being a clear winner. If you’re to use it at all, might as well get it premixed with one of the above, or victory. Although like others have said, the jury is still out on victory... X/C is a pretty solid performer, so I have no reason to believe victory is anything but essentially X/C premixed.
Of course X/C plus an additive is significantly more expensive than the other premixed options, so if you can’t decide on brand except that you know you want an additive, I’d go for W100+ when and where it’s warm enough for it.
It’s not exactly science based but I’ve seen thousands upon thousands of flight school hours with X/C alone, and pretty much all at 100hr oil change intervals (yikes), I call that the gauntlet. There were two or three instances where cams where shot at TBO, but no noticeable performance issues beforehand (all non-roller engines...) and one instance of a bad cam requiring tear down before TBO. I don’t think an additive would make much difference in this environment though, these planes flew literally every day for the life of the engine.
- Roxi5m9
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Re: Aviation oil recommendation
David, I should have mentioned this when I posted before but you mentioned synthetics not carrying oil waste well. This is why Aeroshell makes the half and half. On a microscopic level, synthetic oil molecules are round and smooth and dont attach to particulates, but synthetics are much more lubricating. Natural oil microscopically is course and grabs on to particulates cleaning your engine better. During early trials with pure synthetic oil, engines running 100LL built up large deposits of sludge, which is why they blended it with mineral oil, to get the lubricating properties of synthetic and the cleansing properties of mineral. With the exception of the cam spalding that Rich has mentioned, your oil is going to be just fine with either brand. Again, if one was truly better than the other, we would all know it.dwurfel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:01 pm Last night there was an EAA Webinar on aviation oils. Mike Busch was the presenter who I respect greatly. In any case he made a recommendation for Phillips XC ( multi or single depending on season )in combination with Camguard if you are using 100LL. I currently use Aeroshell 20-50 half synthetic in combo with Camguard. His point was with leaded fuels synthetics do not carry oil waste very effectively and that can lead to sludge build-up. He also recommended oil changes at least every 50 hours or less. The webinar is probably now posted on EAA. When the new unleaded aviation fuels transition is made he enthusiastically said the switch to 100% synthetics could be made. Just wondering what other folks are doing with their Lycoming
lubrication program. Thanks
N597RA 40.444
‘04 DA40-180
ATP, CFI
5M9, Marion, KY
‘04 DA40-180
ATP, CFI
5M9, Marion, KY