Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

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nathanda40
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by nathanda40 »

Rich wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:02 am
nathanda40 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:47 am
Rich wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 am

The big deal is this appears to be the equivalent of the original Hartzel prop for the DAS40 and can’t be used with the PowerFlow. You don’t say whether you have the PF but with the exclusion for US-registered planes I wouldn’t advise installing it in any case.
But what could make it acceptable overseas and not here? Strange. We do not have the power flow
I looked more carefully at the Hartzell link. It says the STC is not for sale (for US registered planes). If you have an IA that will do a 337 using an existing prop and certify its airworthiness you could presumably do this temporary change. I assume you’re switching from an MT, so a W&B modification, and then again with the actual new prop, which is heavier yet.

What’s the hurry? Is the MT unserviceable? BTW it looks like the oil cooler mod kit can be included with the new prop. This is something I hadn’t noticed before. What’s that about?
MT needs imminent overhaul due to leak, going to take weeks for parts.

Yeah the oil cooler I guess is part of the STC
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Rich
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Rich »

A couple of things worth noting.

On the Powerflow site it has this note regarding the Hartzells:
This new prop has been optimized and tested to be compatible with the PFS exhaust. It, as well as its composite counterpart, is the only prop approved for use at 2700 RPM maximum continuous power without the need to install the XL/XLS lower cowl.


Then on the Hartzell information document, as noted, is this requirement:
1 Oil Cooler Modification Kit: 102603
** required on aircraft serial number 40.1029 and earlier
** already equipped on serial number 40.1030 and later


So the interesting questions are:
- For those that converted from the old MTV-12-B/180-17 to the newer MTV-12-B/183-59b ones, were any oil cooler or lower cowl replacements required to allow continuous 2700 RPM operation?
- Just what is the difference between the older lower cowls and the new? Installation of Powerflow usually involves at least patching the original exhaust pipe hole, but that wouldn't seem to be the issue here. On the other hand, the PF does partially obstruct the hot-air exhaust opening of the bottom cowl. I could see benefit to cooling airflow if this were a bit larger.
- What does the oil cooler modification consist of?
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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nathanda40
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by nathanda40 »

Rich wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:50 pm A couple of things worth noting.

On the Powerflow site it has this note regarding the Hartzells:
This new prop has been optimized and tested to be compatible with the PFS exhaust. It, as well as its composite counterpart, is the only prop approved for use at 2700 RPM maximum continuous power without the need to install the XL/XLS lower cowl.


Then on the Hartzell information document, as noted, is this requirement:
1 Oil Cooler Modification Kit: 102603
** required on aircraft serial number 40.1029 and earlier
** already equipped on serial number 40.1030 and later


So the interesting questions are:
- For those that converted from the old MTV-12-B/180-17 to the newer MTV-12-B/183-59b ones, were any oil cooler or lower cowl replacements required to allow continuous 2700 RPM operation?
- Just what is the difference between the older lower cowls and the new? Installation of Powerflow usually involves at least patching the original exhaust pipe hole, but that wouldn't seem to be the issue here. On the other hand, the PF does partially obstruct the hot-air exhaust opening of the bottom cowl. I could see benefit to cooling airflow if this were a bit larger.
- What does the oil cooler modification consist of?
We are proceeding with the 1BFP prop including the STC/oil cooler kit. Will follow up once we get it and I actually see what is involved. If you google the STC, you can see the install instructions which provide some detail.
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Tom-B »

It may seem like a very shallow reason why last year I replaced my original MT 3 bladed prop with another MT 3 bladed prop - but the reason was I like the look of our DA40's with the 3 bladed prop.
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by dmloftus »

Tom-B wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:15 pm It may seem like a very shallow reason why last year I replaced my original MT 3 bladed prop with another MT 3 bladed prop - but the reason was I like the look of our DA40's with the 3 bladed prop.
Not shallow at all. From houses to cars to wives to planes, most people care about curb appeal. But beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I also like the look of our 3 blade MT's. And our specific MT. There are some 3 blades on every ramp with rounded tips that wouldn't look as good as the standard MT 3 blade on the Diamond. The fact that it performs so well is a nice bonus.
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by YCCA »

nathanda40 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:40 pm Thinking to switch to the Hartzell aluminum 2-blade prop. Will probably add the powerflow in the next year. Anybody done this and have performance figures? Or other thoughts?
Yes we did exactly this.. Don’t have a chart of numbers for you but the climb out performance was noticeable and the fuel flow is definitely really nice… 24/24 is just over 8gph
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Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by nathanda40 »

Rich wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:02 am
nathanda40 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:47 am
Rich wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 am

The big deal is this appears to be the equivalent of the original Hartzel prop for the DAS40 and can’t be used with the PowerFlow. You don’t say whether you have the PF but with the exclusion for US-registered planes I wouldn’t advise installing it in any case.
But what could make it acceptable overseas and not here? Strange. We do not have the power flow
I looked more carefully at the Hartzell link. It says the STC is not for sale (for US registered planes). If you have an IA that will do a 337 using an existing prop and certify its airworthiness you could presumably do this temporary change. I assume you’re switching from an MT, so a W&B modification, and then again with the actual new prop, which is heavier yet.

What’s the hurry? Is the MT unserviceable? BTW it looks like the oil cooler mod kit can be included with the new prop. This is something I hadn’t noticed before. What’s that about?
For posterity and other Googlers, I have an update. Basically the HC-C2YR-1BF propeller model is, in fact, okay to use in the United States. Hartzell directly confirmed with both us and our mechanic on that. Some weird issue with STC's in China/EASA had them apparently "word that strangely" on their site. This allows us to use the HC-C2YR-1BF model as a loaner (shop has one sitting there) while we wait for our new HC-C2YR-1BFP model that will take a few months to order in. You can go search the FAA website for the STC as well, which is clearly there. We do not presently have the Powerflow exhaust, but are planning to add it - or at least want the option.

This whole saga with our MT has been rather disappointing. The MT costs over $6k to overhaul and needs parts from Germany. Good luck getting that done in a timely manner right now. While I must admit that it is the sexier option, it is just a bit too pricey given that it has only lasted around 500 hours and 2.5 years from the previous overhaul. Just doesn't seem to work in our application and we don't fly in and out of grass strips or anything. If you own a DA40 that flies 120 hours per year and you are bumping up against the 6 year OH requirement then maybe it will work well for you.

MT also quoted me $3300 per blade if the core doesn't meet their specs. Concerning figures, even for general aviation.
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