Another fatal DA2 crash
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- dgger
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Another fatal DA2 crash
Sad news again. Another DA42 is down. By the looks of the nacelles and due to the presence of a WX radar I would think its a -VI. This time in France with no survivors:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 29312.html
As my last posting about a crash apparently touched some nerves due to graphic images: this article does not expose human remains.
I post this because I am genuinly concerned with safety and I wish an open discussion based on public data will eventually happen.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 29312.html
As my last posting about a crash apparently touched some nerves due to graphic images: this article does not expose human remains.
I post this because I am genuinly concerned with safety and I wish an open discussion based on public data will eventually happen.
- CFIDave
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
Wow, that's a relatively new DA42-VI ("dash six") because the engine nacelles have the extra bump-out added when Austro went to liquid-cooled gearboxes after 2014.
If I read the article translation properly, the plane made at least one aborted landing attempt and had to go around due to high winds. The plane looks like it hit the ground at a relatively flat attitude. I'm wondering if the pilot got too slow and stalled, perhaps due to wind shear near the ground. With 4 people and a dog onboard, the aircraft might also have been near maximum gross weight for a DA42.
If I read the article translation properly, the plane made at least one aborted landing attempt and had to go around due to high winds. The plane looks like it hit the ground at a relatively flat attitude. I'm wondering if the pilot got too slow and stalled, perhaps due to wind shear near the ground. With 4 people and a dog onboard, the aircraft might also have been near maximum gross weight for a DA42.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Aart
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
Horrible. My thoughts go out to the families.
As Dave says, it looks like a flat crash attitude. Moreover, it may have been with no forward speed because -if I'm not mistaken- these metal posts behind the wings are from the vines, and they seem have not even be touched, nor the terrain behind the aircraft was affected..
As Dave says, it looks like a flat crash attitude. Moreover, it may have been with no forward speed because -if I'm not mistaken- these metal posts behind the wings are from the vines, and they seem have not even be touched, nor the terrain behind the aircraft was affected..
Aart
DA42.332 PH-CCD LESB (Palma de Mallorca, Spain)
DA42.332 PH-CCD LESB (Palma de Mallorca, Spain)
- rwtucker
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
Terrible to see this. Looking forward for a moment, what I see in the details of the picture combined with the fact that there were no survivors raises a question about the efficacy of the 26g shell that has always given me some comfort. We can hope that the investigation estimates the impact vector. Does France issue final reports similar to NTSB in the US?
- CFIDave
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
Let's assume for a moment that the plane fell out of the sky stalled in a wings-level flat attitude with little or no forward speed. I've been able to demonstrate something similar at altitude by purposely getting into a power-off full stall with the stick held all the way back -- the stalled plane will experience buffet while nicely holding a stable wings-level attitude (e.g., no "falling leaf"), descending at about 1300 fpm in a DA42-VI or DA62. (A Lycoming DA40 will do this descending at about 700 fpm.).
I've been told that 1300 fpm is about the same rate as a Cirrus descending under parachute -- which would seem to make a Diamond ground impact survivable at that rate with its 26g seats (kevlar with foam crush blocks underneath).
So what happened in this accident, and why wasn't it survivable? Perhaps the plane was diving with a much higher descent rate and the pilot tried to pull up at the last second creating an accelerated stall before hitting the ground wings level.
Hopefully the aircraft had an SDcard in its upper MFD slot recording flight parameters so that accident investigators can determine the plane's final trajectory -- this feature is standard and enabled in all DA42-VI aircraft.
I've been told that 1300 fpm is about the same rate as a Cirrus descending under parachute -- which would seem to make a Diamond ground impact survivable at that rate with its 26g seats (kevlar with foam crush blocks underneath).
So what happened in this accident, and why wasn't it survivable? Perhaps the plane was diving with a much higher descent rate and the pilot tried to pull up at the last second creating an accelerated stall before hitting the ground wings level.
Hopefully the aircraft had an SDcard in its upper MFD slot recording flight parameters so that accident investigators can determine the plane's final trajectory -- this feature is standard and enabled in all DA42-VI aircraft.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Lance Murray
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
I won't speculate but it looks to be lined up with the furoughs/road for an off airport landing. I would also guess that it looks like it landed with little forward speed. That would point to a full stall. I have heard people say that a full stall landing in a Diamond is similar to a Cirrus landing under parachute. One difference is that the Cirrus has fixed spring gear that may absorb some energy. I would think pancaking in on the belly would transfer Significant energy up through the occupants spine causing catastrophic spinal injury. You are better off hitting a wall at that speed than pancaking in.
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
The french version of the article is quite explicit and evens names the victims.
It says that the aircraft stalled after a steep climb-out following a rejected landing possibly due to high winds.
On the photo, the aircraft looks dislocated. We can thank the Jet A1 and Diamond's smart design of the fuel system for the absence of post crash fire, but still - I am upset to see yet another deadly low altitude stall and can't help thinking of the weight of this -VI...
I am betting that a DA40-180 would have gracefully forgiven this situation.
Given what I fly right know I am in no position to argue about the relative safety of other aircraft - but I have always been concerned by the weight gain of the Diamond range and its potential impact (no pun) on the survivability of low-and-slow pilot mistakes.
My first DA40 probably saved my life in a turn to final under high workload/fatigue circumstances.
I also recall getting distracted during the initial climb and triggering the stall horn.
I think it should be nicknamed GA40 as in "Guardian Angel". I honestly believe that the DA40-180 is the best airplane in the Diamond line-up, and if there's anything better elsewhere I have not flown it...
RIP and my respect to families
It says that the aircraft stalled after a steep climb-out following a rejected landing possibly due to high winds.
On the photo, the aircraft looks dislocated. We can thank the Jet A1 and Diamond's smart design of the fuel system for the absence of post crash fire, but still - I am upset to see yet another deadly low altitude stall and can't help thinking of the weight of this -VI...
I am betting that a DA40-180 would have gracefully forgiven this situation.
Given what I fly right know I am in no position to argue about the relative safety of other aircraft - but I have always been concerned by the weight gain of the Diamond range and its potential impact (no pun) on the survivability of low-and-slow pilot mistakes.
My first DA40 probably saved my life in a turn to final under high workload/fatigue circumstances.
I also recall getting distracted during the initial climb and triggering the stall horn.
I think it should be nicknamed GA40 as in "Guardian Angel". I honestly believe that the DA40-180 is the best airplane in the Diamond line-up, and if there's anything better elsewhere I have not flown it...
RIP and my respect to families
- rwtucker
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
I am with you Antoine. I have practiced the typical low and slow pilot errors at altitude in my DA40. I and my co-pilots have always been amazed to see a sink or slip or gentle warning of the stall horn -- or sometimes nothing at all -- where I would have expected more violent behavior from other aircraft I have flown. I have also practiced the deadly "return to airport upon takeoff engine failure." I am hesitant to mention how little altitude I have found necessary to safely execute the 210 degree return to runway turn but I can't think of another common 4-place aircraft that could match the DA40. Also, Dave mentioned a 700 fpm descent in a power off, wings level, trimmed descent of the DA40. That is probably a good number for planning purposes but I can confirm less than 500 fpm with two passengers. These are some reasons why I think the DA40 is in some ways a poor choice for a training aircraft. The overall behavior of the aircraft does not reinforce precision flying behavior.
To the main point of this thread, the protection afforded by a 26g cage has to be adjusted for the mass and impact velocity.
To the main point of this thread, the protection afforded by a 26g cage has to be adjusted for the mass and impact velocity.
- Don
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
I always hate to read these articles. RIP for the victims and prayers for the families.
Diamond Star XLS, N623DS, SN40.1076
- CFIDave
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Re: Another fatal DA2 crash
The 700 fpm descent I described earlier is while holding the stick all the way back in a full stall, creating lots of induced drag, definitely the back side of the power curve. When gliding (i.e., not stalled, stick more forward) I agree that you can get a 500 fpm or less power-off descent in a DA40.rwtucker wrote:Also, Dave mentioned a 700 fpm descent in a power off, wings level, trimmed descent of the DA40. That is probably a good number for planning purposes but I can confirm less than 500 fpm with two passengers
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI