First Time for Everything
Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray
- robert63
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Re: First Time for Everything
Here in Europe they wouldn’t fuel a plane with the pilot/customer not present. Anyone knows why there is this difference between Northamerica and here?
- Colin
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Re: First Time for Everything
We're lazy, particularly the Americans.there is this difference between North America and here
It's difficult to say there's one reason, especially since things vary a *lot* even just state-to-state here in the American portion of North America. Most things are driven by loss of life in the federal regulations of flight and by liability and lawsuits in the business end of things. I guess "presence of owner during fueling" has not reached into either realm. I'd be curious if it is regulatory in Europe or just common sense behavior.
(And it's not actually being lazy, it's probably the reverse. There's a sense of "hurry" in pretty much every aspect of American life. This is likely partly Puritan ethics left over from a couple hundred years ago and partly 1940s labor-efficiency studies and practices that increased efficiency. So everything has to happen immediately and with the least waiting time for a customer. Obviously, fueling while they are using the restroom is the best practice for that. Same with making sure they don't have to chock their own wheels, carry their own luggage into the FBO and so forth.)
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
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- CFIDave
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Re: First Time for Everything
In the 5 years I've been flying Diamond twins I have an iron-clad rule that I *MUST* be present for all JetA fueling -- no exceptions. The aux tank doors at the rear of the engine nacelles must be unlocked and relocked every time those tanks are fueled. And if a line guy fills the main tanks all the way to the top, the right tank will always leak out of the fuel vents, making a mess. So it's actually helpful for me to be present in order to supervise the fueling operation.
Sometimes this is very inconvenient, such as last week when fueling before departure at Treasure Cay (MYAT) in the Bahamas. I twice had to walk nearly 1/2 mile between the plane and the FBO that's located on the street side of the main terminal building (this FBO strangely isn't adjacent to the ramp): once to supervise fueling, and then back to pay my fuel bill.
Sometimes this is very inconvenient, such as last week when fueling before departure at Treasure Cay (MYAT) in the Bahamas. I twice had to walk nearly 1/2 mile between the plane and the FBO that's located on the street side of the main terminal building (this FBO strangely isn't adjacent to the ramp): once to supervise fueling, and then back to pay my fuel bill.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Lance Murray
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Re: First Time for Everything
After Bob Hoover’s incident he installed and advocated for fittings that prevented a jet A nozzle from being used. Unfortunately it doesn’t work the other direction.
- TimS
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Re: First Time for Everything
Why do you have to "lock" the aux tanks?CFIDave wrote:The aux tank doors at the rear of the engine nacelles must be unlocked and relocked every time those tanks are fueled. And if a line guy fills the main tanks all the way to the top, the right tank will always leak out of the fuel vents, making a mess.
Also, I have seen reference to the "overflow leak" on the right tank a few places. Is this common to all the DA-42?
Tim
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Re: First Time for Everything
Hi Tim -
The "leaking fuel vent" is a result of the fuel system design -
From Section 7 of the AFM:
"Main Fuel Tanks
Each tank consists of three aluminum chambers which are connected by a flexible hose.
The tank is filled through a filler in the outboard fuel chamber. Only four liter (1 US gal) ' of fuel in each wing are unusable, so that a total quantity of 94.6 liter (25 US gal) in each
wing is usable.
There are two tank vents. One includes a check valve with a capillary and one includes a relief pressure valve, which operates at 150 mbar (2 PSI) and allows fuel and air to flow to the outside with higher internal pressure. The relief pressure valve protects the tank against high pressure, if the tank was overfilled in case of an auxiliary fuel transfer failure. The check valve with capillary allows air to enter the tank but prevents flow of fuel to the outside. The capillary equalizes the air pressure during climb. The hose terminals are located on the underside of the wing, approximately 2 meters (7 ft) from the wing tip."
The "higher internal pressure" can be caused by heating or barometric pressure changes!
Fill tank to the brim, even in the winter, and fuel will "leak out"! I ask the fueler to stop 1 inch from the "brim"!
Since 742SA doesn't have "AUX TANKS", I don't know why they must be locked - I couldn't find an AFM reference regarding "locking the AUX TANK caps"; Hopefully, someone else will answer that.
The "leaking fuel vent" is a result of the fuel system design -
From Section 7 of the AFM:
"Main Fuel Tanks
Each tank consists of three aluminum chambers which are connected by a flexible hose.
The tank is filled through a filler in the outboard fuel chamber. Only four liter (1 US gal) ' of fuel in each wing are unusable, so that a total quantity of 94.6 liter (25 US gal) in each
wing is usable.
There are two tank vents. One includes a check valve with a capillary and one includes a relief pressure valve, which operates at 150 mbar (2 PSI) and allows fuel and air to flow to the outside with higher internal pressure. The relief pressure valve protects the tank against high pressure, if the tank was overfilled in case of an auxiliary fuel transfer failure. The check valve with capillary allows air to enter the tank but prevents flow of fuel to the outside. The capillary equalizes the air pressure during climb. The hose terminals are located on the underside of the wing, approximately 2 meters (7 ft) from the wing tip."
The "higher internal pressure" can be caused by heating or barometric pressure changes!
Fill tank to the brim, even in the winter, and fuel will "leak out"! I ask the fueler to stop 1 inch from the "brim"!
Since 742SA doesn't have "AUX TANKS", I don't know why they must be locked - I couldn't find an AFM reference regarding "locking the AUX TANK caps"; Hopefully, someone else will answer that.
Looking!
1980 414A - N2691Y (sold)
DA62 - N100DA 62.078 (sold)
DA42TDi - N742SA 42.AC112 (sold)
1980 414A - N2691Y (sold)
DA62 - N100DA 62.078 (sold)
DA42TDi - N742SA 42.AC112 (sold)
- cptndavid
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Re: First Time for Everything
I ask the line guy to stop at the fuel cap wire on the tab of the right wing. usually works.
-
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Re: First Time for Everything
Ps: Here's a link for the "all" the Diamond manuals - http://www.diamondaircraft.com/technical-publications/
Looking!
1980 414A - N2691Y (sold)
DA62 - N100DA 62.078 (sold)
DA42TDi - N742SA 42.AC112 (sold)
1980 414A - N2691Y (sold)
DA62 - N100DA 62.078 (sold)
DA42TDi - N742SA 42.AC112 (sold)
- TimS
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Re: First Time for Everything
ah, thanks. I did not think to look for the AFM.
I would think that 2psi should be sufficient. Assume worst case the relief pressure valve is located at the vent. This is about 8 inches (my guess) below the top of the tank.
Some basic conversion:
7lbs per gallon ~ 52lbs per cubic foot
52lbs/cubic foot ~ 0.03psi (inch height).
0.03psi * 8in = 0.24psi
So either my math is off, of the check valve has gone bad in many cases.
Tim
I would think that 2psi should be sufficient. Assume worst case the relief pressure valve is located at the vent. This is about 8 inches (my guess) below the top of the tank.
Some basic conversion:
7lbs per gallon ~ 52lbs per cubic foot
52lbs/cubic foot ~ 0.03psi (inch height).
0.03psi * 8in = 0.24psi
So either my math is off, of the check valve has gone bad in many cases.
Tim