da42tdi to da42ng transition

Any DA42 related topics.

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bd32322
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da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by bd32322 »

I posted earlier that I was having trouble finding an available examiner for my checkride. Looks like the situation is better in long beach with angel city flyers. However, they only have da42-ng for rent. So instead of flying a tdi down from the bay area with an instructor, I was thinking of renting their NG for a few familiarity flights and also to get familiar with the area. I have a NG available for rent in the bay area too but the only one there is in maintenance till end of October.

Question is what is the transition like? Any tips? Without having flown the NG I feel like they should be similar enough, except for increased yaw with OEI maybe

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Colin
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by Colin »

I was told it was an hour of flight time to do the transition.
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by Daneshgari »

Have you tried contacting the school in London, ON? They are great outfit for all questions and have plenty of training planes.

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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by CFIDave »

I transitioned the other way: After training in a DA42 NG, I experienced a Stick Limiter failure that aborted the takeoff during my multi checkride. That NG was sold right after being fixed, so I had to get checked out in an available DA42 TDI to complete my checkride.

The biggest difference is the GFC700 vs. the KAP140 autopilot, and remembering to turn on the electric fuel pump switches during takeoff/landing on the NG. And memorizing a whole new set of V-speeds. Otherwise they fly almost identically. You'll need one or two flights to get used to the NG.
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by jb642DA »

I agree with Dave's 1-2 ride transition, especially if your "comfortable" in the 42TDi. Although I haven't flown a 42NG/VI, I went from our 2007 DA42TDi to our DA62. I was very comfortable after a few TO&Ls and about an hour in the plane. Nicest change was the GFC700 versus the KAP140! I found the 62 to fly very similarly to the 42 even though it has slightly higher speeds for TO and landings. I imagine transitioning to the DA42NG/VI would be a very similar experience.

On a separate note because Dave mentioned the fuel boost pumps - ( I don't know if the 42NG/VI switches are set up the same as the 62) - - -

Here's one big Human Factors "gotcha" for the DA62 fuel boost pumps and their switch locations - when shutting off the right boost pump (ESPECIALLY AFTER TAKEOFF!) DO NOT accidentally shut off the avionics master switch instead of the right boost pump!! (see pic below)

The switches are identical in color and shape in the 62 and only about 2 inches apart!!
I did this once after landing (biggest effect of doing that on the ground was losing the #2 comm and intercom)- Since then, I turn them ON and ESPECIALLY OFF one at a time and make sure I am switching the RIGHT (correct too!) BOOST PUMP switch!

Here's a training scenario to think about and "chair fly" -
What would happen if you took off in low IFR (say 200-400' overcast) and engaged the GFC700 autopilot shortly after takeoff.
When its time to turn off the fuel boost pumps, what would happen if the Avionics Master switch was accidentally turned off instead of the Right boost pump switch?? How quickly would you recognize what's happening in the aircraft and what did you just lose systems-wise?? What will the plane be doing during this "event" and what do you need to do to fully "recover" from this??
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by Colin »

That's a really good scenario to practice in a simulator.

The Citation accident off of Burke Lakefront airport at Cleveland appears to be because the pilot had 350 hours in a Citation Mustang and only a few dozen in his brand new Citation 3 (I think, might have been a four). The yaw damper and autopilot buttons are reversed. In the Mustang there's an LED that tells you the AP is engaged. So at night, taking off into snow, family and friends on board, after a long day, the pilot (flying Single Pilot IFR) probably didn't know that the autopilot didn't engage. I think they were in the lake in less than four minutes (it's a powerful plane, things happen quickly).

I assume in your scenario the AP would disengage. But the screens would stay on, so you'd see a bunch of red X's through things.
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by jb642DA »

Hi Colin -

Autopilot will depower - I plan to video the event sometime soon (VFR of course) to see the warnings and other things that will happen. I'm also planning to do this in a couple of different airframes.
The purpose of this is so we can develop a sim training syllabus to provide this type of "situational awareness" and emergency training along with CFIT and VFR/IFR unusual attitude recovery training to local pilots. Good "wintertime" training up here in MI!! The course will be based on "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate".


As far as the Burke Lakefront accident goes - - - "switchology was a factor" but I think the departure instructions were a major cause too - His clearance was to climb to 2000' and turn right a heading of 330 (90 deg right hand turn along with quick leveloff!). BKL is at 583' MSL, so level off was 1400'AGL! The ATC instructions had him leveling almost immediately after takeoff and turning 90 degrees, into the "Black Hole" provided by Lake Erie (conditions were Night "marginal VFR").

All of this created a very high workload, especially for the "unprepared" in a relatively high performance jet. I think the pilot didn't realize the severity of the "low altitude hold down" nor how "quickly" it would come (about 20 seconds after rotating and only 33 seconds after starting the takeoff roll - Info from ADS-B data plot) See the ADS-B plot of position and altitude data - https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/docu ... mkey=94545)

ADS-B showed the plane overshooting the 2000'MSL level off altitude by about 900' (2925' MSL). Perhaps he realized that overshoot and, wanting to avoid an altitude "bust" from ATC, pushed the nose over to get back to 2000'MSL?? (personal opinion - incredible chance for vertigo here, especially after the attempt to return to 2000'MSL and being in the black hole of Lake Erie - now causing HARD IFR conditions seconds after departing "VFR")

Overall, a very sad accident.
(I'm planning to use a similar scenario in the sim program)


Here's another thing to consider practicing in a sim or "chair flying" - How do you respond to a low altitude warning after takeoff, or on landing, (both VFR and IFR) with possible controlled/uncontrolled flight into ground? What "aviate" steps will increase your chance of survival?



Here's the link to the NTSB final report -
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA
Here's a link to the data links - https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitl ... EDA8EF15BC
PDF of ADS-B altitude and position plot - https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/docu ... mkey=94545
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by dgger »

jb642DA wrote:On a separate note because Dave mentioned the fuel boost pumps - ( I don't know if the 42NG/VI switches are set up the same as the 62)
They are not. I am aware of two different layouts, depending on whether it's a conversion keeping the KAP140 or an aircraft that has the GFC installed. In the GFC equipped model the fuel pumps are located where the TDI version has its KAP140. When the KAP140 is installed I have seen the fuel pumps above the ECU switches. It is difficult to mistake them for anything else in either case.

I like to suggest the difference are indeed minimal. The GFC v. KAP one is the biggest one, if it applies. At a local flight school (in EASA land) we train with both a TDI and a KAP equipped NG conversion and use those interchangeably. The minimal differences boil down to:
  • no fuel pumps in the TDI
  • 92% NG) vs, 100% (TDI) max. continous power
  • slightly different speeds
I wouldn't know what transition training could really consists of to be honest other than taking a good hard look at the GFC AP, should one even be installed. Other than that both aircraft literally fly the same.
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Re: da42tdi to da42ng transition

Post by jb642DA »

Thanks Peter for the pump switch info!
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1980 414A - N2691Y (sold)
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