DA42 Purchase

Any DA42 related topics.

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Johnmyers
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DA42 Purchase

Post by Johnmyers »

Another pilot and I are considering purchasing a DA42 in a partnership. I've read every post in the 42 forums and hope I could get your insights on a few additional questions I haven't seen discussed yet (apologies in advance if I've missed a thread). This would be our first aircraft purchase.

- Since the CD135 can be operated at 100%, what is the reason not to do so? It would seem that any fuel savings would be eliminated by the timed maintenance expenses. Relatedly, is the AE330 purely a software change as I've seen suggested, or does it have additional cooling like the CD155 does? It seems most do not operate it at MCP either.

- I think we're probably looking for an NG, but unfortunately that seems to be the least produced variant. Does anyone have the number of TDI/NG/-VI to date produced? Usually I'd expect 10% of a fleet to be on the market, but that doesn't seem to be the case with 42s– and it's hard to extrapolate from zero. I expect that's partially flight schools, but also pilots liking the 42s more than other types and hanging onto them.

- Cost has been discussed quite a bit on the forum, interested to see if my numbers sound roughly accurate as I based them in part on reading here. I came up with a true all-in cost (including opportunity cost of capital, depreciation, etc.) of about $95k/yr at 200hrs/yr. That's an honest, "how much less money will I have than if I never bought it" number, and includes everything I can think of. Higher than normal expenses for us will be insurance as new multi pilots (expecting about $13k/yr) and hangar (also about $13k/yr) at KAPA or KBJC. I assumed a $550k hull value, 5.5% cap cost, 1.5% depreciation (separate from engine reserves), $6k average annual, 15gph. I was surprised at the insurance quote, but according to our agent 4 of 5 underwriters declined to cover us at all, and I called Avemco and was also declined with CPL and ~600hrs total (only 10 multi), so make it 5 of 6.

- I've reviewed the engine logs that are available on the few planes on the market, and it seems annuals tend to be unusually predictable, and it's even possible there's nothing unscheduled which I would think would be nearly unheard of with most other airframes (especially ones from Duluth). Is that representative?

We're currently planning on flying out to KLGB to rent an NG this weekend, as the factory apparently sold their only demo aircraft and we can't find a -VI to fly. There's only an L360 locally here in Denver, which isn't representative of what we're after. If anyone finds themselves in the Denver area in the near future please let me know, lunch is on me if you don't mind incessant questions about your airplane.

Thanks for indulging all of my questions.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by dgger »

Johnmyers wrote:Does anyone have the number of TDI/NG/-VI to date produced?
I have not done it myself, but you could simply look up the NG airframe numbers as they are assigned in a serial fashion. The largest number you find (e.g. at the FAA registry or controller.com, etc.) plus a bit should give you a good estimate. You also have to guess how many of the original TDI have been converted as they come on top.
Johnmyers wrote:Higher than normal expenses for us will be insurance as new multi pilots (expecting about $13k/yr) and hangar (also about $13k/yr) at KAPA or KBJC. I assumed a $550k hull value, 5.5% cap cost, 1.5% depreciation (separate from engine reserves), $6k average annual, 15gph.
Hangar, capital cost, insurance, etc. clearly depend on your personal situation. There rest feels about right to me. Depreciation appear to be a bit low, if you look at asking prices at this very moment:
Image
To me it looks more like 2.5% including engine and prop reserves; both of which are not that bad really. Diamond gave me an estimate of less than 30k Euros for both sides. Props are about half that figure.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by CFIDave »

Your insurance estimate is high. We insured our DA42-VI with a $800K hull value and a pilot on the policy with fewer hours for about $6K ($1 million smooth). AVEMCO always seems to quote rates twice as high as other underwriters of Diamond aircraft insurance. Be sure to work with a broker who is familiar with Diamonds.

The AE330 (E4P-C engine of the DA62) appears to have identical hardware to the latest AE300 (E4-C engine of the DA42-VI) including the same cooling system. The major difference is that the DA62 has a one inch bigger diameter prop, which is why you can't just run E4P-C software on an E4-C engine to get 10 more horsepower. The DA42 NG uses the older E4-B design, which has a different radiator among some other minor hardware differences, and the DA40 NG single uses the E4-A engine with the intake manifold turned 180 degrees for cowling space reasons.

If you're looking for a good used DA42 NG, be aware that there are multiple 2005-2008 DA42 TDI aircraft that have been converted from Thielert to Austro engines, but retain the original KAP-140 autopilot. When available, these typically sell in the high $400K range. A 2009-2012 DA42 NG (or earlier one converted with GFC700 autopilot and WAAS) will sell in the upper $500K+ range. But as you noted DA42 NG models exist in much smaller numbers than Thielert (Continental)-equipped DA42 TDI aircraft. (I know of a DA42 NG that's about to become available for sale.)

Annual inspection cost (independent of oil/filter changes or fixing any discrepancies that are found) for a DA42 or DA62 is about $4K. You will need to replace the Panasonic backup ECU batteries annually, but you can purchase these yourself from multiple sources.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by ememic99 »

Johnmyers wrote:Since the CD135 can be operated at 100%, what is the reason not to do so?
Some people do it but sometimes it's not practical because it would cause intermediate landing on longer trips. E.g. if running 80% instead of 100% saves you 10-14 gallons (depending on engines you have) on 4 hour flight, that means you can fly one hour longer towards the destination, loosing 15 minutes due to lower speed but gaining one hour on avoiding refueling stop and risking descend through bad weather. Additionally, 2300 RPM and max available power for particular altitude (not necessarily 100% due to turbo losing power with altitude) are not always the best choice for getting max TAS.
Johnmyers wrote:Relatedly, is the AE330 purely a software change as I've seen suggested, or does it have additional cooling like the CD155 does? It seems most do not operate it at MCP either.
It's not only a software change. As you assumed you can not produce more power without the ability to radite additional heat.
Johnmyers wrote:I think we're probably looking for an NG, but unfortunately that seems to be the least produced variant.
I don't understand why would you go for NG. In my opinion that's the worst DA42 produced and that's why they produced it very shortly. Some of them are just TDI with replacement AE300 engines and KAP140 autopilot, some are produced as NG with GFC700 but without WAAS and pretty old version of G1000 software. What you get is nose heavy and aerodynamically less efficient aircraft than TDI which burns same amount fuel as -VI for significantly lower speed. As you would expect NG is slower that CD-155 upgraded TDI.

I uploaded famous speeds chart that I updated with what I recorded for TDI with CD-155 during my first 100 hours with it.
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NG-VI-and-TDi-CD155-Cruise-Speeds1.jpg
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by CFIDave »

ememic99 wrote:I don't understand why would you go for NG. In my opinion that's the worst DA42 produced and that's why they produced it very shortly.
Here are some reasons why a good used DA42 NG with Austro engines might make sense:

1. There aren't any CD-155 DA42s for resale, which means a buyer would have to go through all the hassle of purchasing a DA42 TDI with run-out CD-135s and then endure an extensive/expensive upgrade process to convert to CD-155 engines, etc. As with avionics, it's always better to let the previous owner make upgrades rather than go through it yourself.

2. A DA42 NG with GFC700 and WAAS can run the same modern GDU 15 G1000 software as a DA42-VI, which you can't do with a CD-155 upgrade. A DA42 NG is also more likely to be eligible for a future upgrade to G1000 NXi, which will likely require Austro engines.

3. I have found Austro engined DA42 NGs (and *all* Austro Diamonds) to be quieter, smoother, start more easily, and have lower maintenance costs (including overhaul/replacement) than those with Thielert 2.0/CD-135 engines that are mechanically very similar to CD-155 engines. I really liked flying the Austros in my previously-owned DA42-VI, and now my DA62.

I'm sure a CD-155-converted DA42 is a joy to fly (I haven't experienced one since there are so few of these), and if priced right in the used market, would definitely be worth considering as an alternative to a DA42 NG. But IMHO a good used DA42 NG with Austro engines is worth the premium over a DA42 TDI model.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by Johnmyers »

dgger wrote: Hangar, capital cost, insurance, etc. clearly depend on your personal situation. There rest feels about right to me. Depreciation appear to be a bit low, if you look at asking prices at this very moment:

To me it looks more like 2.5% including engine and prop reserves; both of which are not that bad really. Diamond gave me an estimate of less than 30k Euros for both sides. Props are about half that figure.
How did you arrive at 2.5%? I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't derive that from your chart.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by dgger »

Johnmyers wrote: How did you arrive at 2.5%? I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't derive that from your chart.
The linear regression give you about 200k depreciation over 10 year, which is approx. 25% of the price of a „like new“ DA42 (not factoring in the „factory surcharge for picking colors and extras“) of approx. 800k. If feel this is a fair comparison as the „loss“ you incur by flying a brand new aircraft off the production line should not count towards the deprecation, if you ask me.

Year on year its even more - more like 2.9%, actually. Does that make sense?
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by Johnmyers »

CFIDave wrote:Your insurance estimate is high. We insured our DA42-VI with a $800K hull value and a pilot on the policy with fewer hours for about $6K ($1 million smooth). AVEMCO always seems to quote rates twice as high as other underwriters of Diamond aircraft insurance. Be sure to work with a broker who is familiar with Diamonds.
That's vastly better, however this was an actual quote from an underwriter, and so far it's the only quote we were able to get. I assumed it was due to the low multi time. I'll shoot you an email as I don't think I'm permitted to say the name on the forum. They were referred from Premier.
CFIDave wrote:If you're looking for a good used DA42 NG, be aware that there are multiple 2005-2008 DA42 TDI aircraft that have been converted from Thielert to Austro engines, but retain the original KAP-140 autopilot. When available, these typically sell in the high $400K range. A 2009-2012 DA42 NG (or earlier one converted with GFC700 autopilot and WAAS) will sell in the upper $500K+ range. But as you noted DA42 NG models exist in much smaller numbers than Thielert (Continental)-equipped DA42 TDI aircraft. (I know of a DA42 NG that's about to become available for sale.)
Thank you for the info. The GFC700 NG we are hoping to fly this weekend may be the same one you're referring to?
CFIDave wrote:Annual inspection cost (independent of oil/filter changes or fixing any discrepancies that are found) for a DA42 or DA62 is about $4K.
"fixing any discrepancies" is the million dollar question. I have a feel for what this tends to average on an SR22, not so much on a DA42. Seems like budgeting an extra $3k/yr or so would be reasonable on top of the inspection itself? Exclusive of oil changes, reserves, etc. as you say. I understand Arapahoe Aero here in Denver hasn't worked on many of the Austros (they have one Diesel guy) so I'm not sure what that wrinkle might add, although they are a Diamond service center.

Thanks again for all of the great info, and to the admins for volunteering their time to keep this forum humming.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by Johnmyers »

dgger wrote:
Johnmyers wrote: How did you arrive at 2.5%? I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't derive that from your chart.
The linear regression give you about 200k depreciation over 10 year, which is approx. 25% of the price of a „like new“ DA42 (not factoring in the „factory surcharge for picking colors and extras“) of approx. 800k. If feel this is a fair comparison as the „loss“ you incur by flying a brand new aircraft off the production line should not count towards the deprecation, if you ask me.

Year on year its even more - more like 2.9%, actually. Does that make sense?
It does, thanks. This is roughly inflation, making depreciation negligible, unless you'd corrected for that already. But then I had to repeat calculus (twice) in college, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: DA42 Purchase

Post by ememic99 »

CFIDave wrote:1. There aren't any CD-155 DA42s for resale, which means a buyer would have to go through all the hassle of purchasing a DA42 TDI with run-out CD-135s and then endure an extensive/expensive upgrade process to convert to CD-155 engines, etc. As with avionics, it's always better to let the previous owner make upgrades rather than go through it yourself.
There are not but upgrade to CD-155 is 5 weeks and 160k job, scimitar props included. Is it expensive or not, I can’t say but comparing to AE300 upgrade of TDI, it’s less than half of the price.
CFIDave wrote:2. A DA42 NG with GFC700 and WAAS can run the same modern GDU 15 G1000 software as a DA42-VI, which you can't do with a CD-155 upgrade. A DA42 NG is also more likely to be eligible for a future upgrade to G1000 NXi, which will likely require Austro engines.
Some can and some can’t. Some implementations of GFC700 are just different. TDI is stuck with old G1000 software only thanks to Diamond’s extreme care for existing customers. Knowing that, NXi upgrade will never happen to NG owners. When I see what can’t be upgraded on the first DA62s, I know I’m right when I say this.
CFIDave wrote:3. I have found Austro engined DA42 NGs (and *all* Austro Diamonds) to be quieter, smoother, start more easily, and have lower maintenance costs (including overhaul/replacement) than those with Thielert 2.0/CD-135 engines that are mechanically very similar to CD-155 engines. I really liked flying the Austros in my previously-owned DA42-VI, and now my DA62.
Start more easily - yes, quieter - maybe, smoother - I’m not sure. Maybe cost per hour is lower after you do few overhauls/exchanges but I still haven’t seen AE300 overhaul price. If you have one, please share so we can compare 2100 hours TBR of CD-155 with 1800 hours TBO of AE300. BTW EASA certificate for CD-155 (and CD-135) allows overhaul as well (although I haven’t heard anyone did it).
CFIDave wrote:I'm sure a CD-155-converted DA42 is a joy to fly (I haven't experienced one since there are so few of these), and if priced right in the used market, would definitely be worth considering as an alternative to a DA42 NG. But IMHO a good used DA42 NG with Austro engines is worth the premium over a DA42 TDI model.
I’m sure flying any DA42 and DA62 is joy but also I’m sure that NG is for Diamond abandoned project, same as TDI. I would rather aim for -VI, if AE300 is buyer’s preferred engine.

It’s shame that some 30+ years old airframes can be upgraded with most advanced avionics while with 10 years old DA42 you can’t do anything. Moreover, TDI was dead end practically 2-3 years after beginning of manufacturing.
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