KAP140

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ememic99
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Re: KAP140

Post by ememic99 »

CFIDave wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:57 pm
ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:37 pm
CFIDave wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:31 pm With the KAP140, setting the altitude bug does nothing but help the pilot remember the desired altitude;
Actually it does - it provides ATC with info on altitude set on G1000 via Mode-S response.
Are you saying the data block on controller screens displays the setting of the plane's G1000 altitude bug?
Yes.

In many European countries Mode S has been mandated for IFR, AFAIK all civil aircrafts will have to have it until June 2020.
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Re: KAP140

Post by CFIDave »

ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:12 pm
CFIDave wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:57 pm
ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:37 pm
Actually it does - it provides ATC with info on altitude set on G1000 via Mode-S response.
Are you saying the data block on controller screens displays the setting of the plane's G1000 altitude bug?
Yes.

In many European countries Mode S has been mandated for IFR, AFAIK all civil aircrafts will have to have it until June 2020.
If what you say is true, then you've identified a major difference between US and European ATC.

Here in the US, most GA aircraft are Mode C rather than Mode S, and US ATC controllers do not see altitude pre-select on their screens -- only the actual aircraft altitude (corrected for barometric pressure, but that's a different discussion).

Furthermore, when configuring a Garmin Mode S transponder as part of G1000 software installation (I've performed this multiple times), there's a checkbox for "Enhanced Surveillance" that makes this feature optional; it's not required in the US.

Soon none of this will matter in the US due to the FAA's 2020 mandate for ADS-B Out, which effectively supersedes Mode S in its capabilities. For example because of ADS-B, when the FAA replaces terminal radar systems, new radars no longer provide TIS traffic information to Mode S-equipped aircraft. But even with ADS-B, US controllers won't see the setting of your G1000 altitude bug, so I stand by my original statement that (in the US at least) setting the altitude bug doesn't do anything with a KAP-140 autopilot. :)
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Re: KAP140

Post by TJS »

pietromarx wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:55 am I've had planes with both (currently have a GFC700). Beyond some of the minor things (duplicate entry for baro and using a different interface for the G1000 and KAP-140 to set the AP mode), you and your passengers will likely notice very little difference. As I recall (and to be corrected by others), the KAP-140 won't fly a hold and can't do some of the smoother G1000-driven maneuvers, but these are kind of edge cases. When was the last time you did a hold other than for proficiency?
I actually got put into one in September; two of us little guys got put into a hold to let a faster Jet get in ahead of us. I was never taught how to use the G1000 to do the hold automatically so ended flying it manually using the heading bug and timer, good practice. In IMC too, it was fun.
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Re: KAP140

Post by TJS »

ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:49 pm It's more likely that you'll have WAAS if you have GFC700. AFAIK there are very few GFC700 installed in non-WAAS DA42 and very few KAP140 upgraded to WAAS. GFC700 has stronger servos that are less likely to fail. DA42 with KAP140 will probably be less expensive but not only because of autopilot - it's more likely it will be older and with more flight hours and it will probably have CD-135 instead of AE300 engines.
This is a good point. WAAS is more of a deal breaker for me than the KAP140 anyway. I did not put these two together. I am looking for a less expensive a DA42 as the price gets substantially higher with all the extra features. Maybe worth the investment in the long run with resale value. These items are expensive if not impossible to upgrade too in the older DA42s that did not have them. Maybe I will find a mid time CPO that is priced reasonably. Most have the CD-135 but I don't think that is as much a deal breaker as they are still a viable option especially after the time extensions on the engine and gearboxes. You still pay a substantial premium to get the benefit of the Austro both new and in resale.
My perfect DA42 has WAAS, TAS600, XM weather, GFC700 with low to mid time engines. Priced right :D
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Re: KAP140

Post by ememic99 »

CFIDave wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:57 pm
ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:12 pm
CFIDave wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:57 pm Are you saying the data block on controller screens displays the setting of the plane's G1000 altitude bug?
Yes.

In many European countries Mode S has been mandated for IFR, AFAIK all civil aircrafts will have to have it until June 2020.
If what you say is true, then you've identified a major difference between US and European ATC.

Here in the US, most GA aircraft are Mode C rather than Mode S, and US ATC controllers do not see altitude pre-select on their screens -- only the actual aircraft altitude (corrected for barometric pressure, but that's a different discussion).

...

But even with ADS-B, US controllers won't see the setting of your G1000 altitude bug, ...
That’s shame because that provides ATC with instant feedback whether crew is climbing/descending to correct altitude. I know that they don’t know whether it’s coupled to autopilot or not but at least shows them that readback was followed by correct action.

BTW it’s strage that you’re still questioning this after getting few feedbacks confirming this fact. We’re operating in different environments and unfortunately FAA and EASA have different roadmaps requiring additional efforts from manufacturers and increasing cost of equipment.
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Re: KAP140

Post by ememic99 »

TJS wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:23 pm
ememic99 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:49 pm It's more likely that you'll have WAAS if you have GFC700. AFAIK there are very few GFC700 installed in non-WAAS DA42 and very few KAP140 upgraded to WAAS. GFC700 has stronger servos that are less likely to fail. DA42 with KAP140 will probably be less expensive but not only because of autopilot - it's more likely it will be older and with more flight hours and it will probably have CD-135 instead of AE300 engines.
This is a good point. WAAS is more of a deal breaker for me than the KAP140 anyway. I did not put these two together. I am looking for a less expensive a DA42 as the price gets substantially higher with all the extra features. Maybe worth the investment in the long run with resale value. These items are expensive if not impossible to upgrade too in the older DA42s that did not have them. Maybe I will find a mid time CPO that is priced reasonably. Most have the CD-135 but I don't think that is as much a deal breaker as they are still a viable option especially after the time extensions on the engine and gearboxes. You still pay a substantial premium to get the benefit of the Austro both new and in resale.
My perfect DA42 has WAAS, TAS600, XM weather, GFC700 with low to mid time engines. Priced right :D
If you go for CD-135 (or CD-155) equipped aircraft you have to take care of the year of manufacturing of the engines. The older ones are 1500 (1200) hours rated while the newer ones are 2100 hours. Depending on environment you operate within, it can or cannot be extended. There are also other items (like greaboxes and HP pumps) which have different lifetime in old and new engines. Looking for WAAS probably equals GFC700 and AE300 equipped aircraft.

BTW check the petition we started on this forum viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6643&e=1&view=unread#unread requiring Diamond to provide upgrade path for avionics for older aircrafts.
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Re: KAP140

Post by meowmeow »

I encourage all fellow DA42 owners to express a desire to have the Garmin GFC500 certified for it so that we can replace those wonky KAP140s. Here is where you can do that: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/forms/autopilotinterest
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Re: KAP140

Post by ememic99 »

I'm not sure that GFC500 is suitable since Garmin market it for SEP while GFC600 is intended for MEP and HP SEP. So I filled the form and ticked GFC600.
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Re: KAP140

Post by vontresc »

I lust for a GFC700. We have the K(R)AP-140 in out non-waas Da-40, and while it is a functional autopilot, the UI is just generally terrible.

IIRC in our non WAAS setup ther eis no roll steering input so none of the fancy G1000 features such as flying the hold or procedure turn are there. It also wont lead the turn on a GPS approach. The interface is solely based on the CDI deflection. Our archer with the piper autocontrol and a roll steering interface to the 430W has better lateral control that then KAP-140.

The KAP-140 does have pitch control, but it is not smart. As mentioned earlier, it WILL fly you into a stall if you command it to. The interface to change altitude is not intuitive. changing the alt preset does not command it to climb or descend. It will only do so after you change the alt mode to Vertical speed mode and command a rate of climb. It will however fly a coupled ILS. It will not however in our non WAAS installation fly a non ILS glideslope.

Long story short, it works, but isn't great. A GFC 700 is a MUCH BETTER autopilot.
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Re: KAP140

Post by ememic99 »

Additionally, Garmin stated on several occasions that GFC500 and GFC600 will not be certified for G1000 aircrafts. For G1000 they already have GFC700 and I don't think they have any intention to change this.
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