Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Any DA42 related topics.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
ememic99
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
First Name: Emir
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
Airports: LDZA LDVA
Has thanked: 203 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by ememic99 »

Just for comparison (it's in Europe, so usually more expensive than US) I checked my bills (DA42) - 100hr check is always charged €1500 ($1700) flat. Parts (oils and consumptions) are usually around €600 ($700), so I can say $2200 in total.
User avatar
ultraturtle
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:46 pm
First Name: Rob
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N62KZ
Airports: KAAF
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 180 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by ultraturtle »

To echo Dave's point earlier, these are the 100 hr Austro engine tasks:
  • Check Engine Harness and Sensors 
    Check EECU (fault code memory) 
    Check EECU read out 
    Check Gearbox Oil
    Check Gearbox Oil Filter
    Check V-Ribbed Belt 
    Change Engine Oil
    Change Engine Oil Filter
    Check Cylinder Head Drain 
    Check Fuel System 
    Change Fuel Filter 
    Check Waste Gate Controller 
    Check Exhaust System 
    Check Cooling System 
    Check Oil Seperator Breather line 
    Zonal Inspection 
Each "Check" is not simply a trivial visual inspection. For instance, the waste gate controller system check alone involves:
  • 1. For checking the waste gate controller, remove the clip [1] and pull off the hose [2].
    2. For the checking procedure use an air pressure device with the ability to stepwise increase the pressure at the waste gate.
    3. Apply the hose [3] from the chosen air pressure device [4] onto the port of the controller and fix it with a clamp.
    4. Slowly pump air in the controller by use of an air pressure device.
    5. At 1,5 bar the pushrod must start to move.
    6. If it is necessary to correct the adjustment, loosen the nut [5] and remove the circlip [6].
    Only apply an relative air pressure of 1,4 – 1,5 bar to the controller to move the pushrod. Do not exceed the maximum allowable pressure of 3,5 bar.
    7. To reduce the opening pressure, turn the fitting [7] out of the pushrod [8].
    8. To increase the opening pressure, turn the fitting [7] into the pushrod [8].
    9. Recapitulate this procedure until the pressure has 1,5 bar.
    10. When the pressure is correct, mount the fitting [7] back onto the waste gate pin and secure it with a circlip [6].
    A new circlip has to be used for installation.
    11. Torque the nut [5] with 6 Nm using Loctite 243.
    When using Loctite, make sure, that the thread is free of grease and apply only a thin film of Loctite.
    Hold the pushrod [8] with a gripper.
    12. Remove the hose [3] from the special tool [4] and apply the hose [2] onto the controller port.
    13. Secure the hose with new clamp.
    14. Perform an engine ground run according to Chapter 71-00-03.
Other system checks are similarly complex and time intensive, most requiring the use of special tools.

I tip my hat to individuals and shops who have the equipment and expertise necessary to perform all of these tasks in less than 6 hours per engine, because I surely cannot.
User avatar
Davestation
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: D-JET
Aircraft Registration: NDJET
Airports: KFTW
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 100 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Davestation »

Six hours total is plenty reasonable if we're talking about the same thing, in fact I'd probably forgive them for charging 8, but what we're talking about is not a 100hr inspection (ie. airframe, or at least full 100hr engine checklist) - what I think we're talking about is an oil and filter change to meed the 91 requirements only, while the rest is captured at the next annual.

So I guess we need clarification - did the shop charge you for cfiave's inspection or ultraturtle's? I suspect they knew you were onto something though if you were met with such hostility simply for asking them to explain the scope of the work to you.

As for the flat rate labor quotes, the question to pose to them is about the same - what does this include? I generally take it to mean "everything that needs to be done" but they could easily rake you over the coals if it doesn't. Do they do the 100hr lubrication as part of that flat rate because it's a given, or is it billed as a separate squawk? ECU batteries because obviously those are part of an annual, or still more labor? I've seen shops charge 8 hours "AD research" on top of the "flat rate" inspection. My question is, how do you perform an annual inspection without researching ADs?? Flat rating isn't inherently evil for a task that has been done a thousand times over (and can actually offer you some insurance), but everyone has to be on the same page about what's included.
User avatar
Khardiganmd
1 Diamond Member
1 Diamond Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:52 am
First Name: Kenneth
Aircraft Type: DA42-VI
Aircraft Registration: N426yp
Airports: Ksav
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Khardiganmd »

I have a DA-42-6 2017 based in Savannah but serviced with Glenn at SouthTec in Salisbury NC. At KRUQ . Glenn and his AP mechanics are accessible, fair and quite committed to excellent work. That said, the Flight school in Savannah at Flycorps is slowly trying to establish an Austro300 option with an AP group out of Atlanta and Swainsboro. SouthTec will remain our “Go to” option for complex issues if/ when they arise.
User avatar
UncleSpud
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:17 am
First Name: Chip
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N622GG
Airports: KFHB
Has thanked: 4 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by UncleSpud »

The 100 hour oil change was for just oil and filters. I believe he charged me 6 hours a side because he knew he could and because he fit me right in. However, maybe it was a mistake on his part. Again, he didn't say he put in 12 labor hours, only he was frustrated I challenged him on the bill (he did then reduce down to 4 hours a side).

My issue is more with Diamond maintenance overall. I just finished my third annual on my DA42 at the only other "Authorized Diamond Service" facility in Florida with another $8,800 annual. No significant parts, mostly labor. (16 hours was the 1000 hour bonding test).

I love Diamond aircraft.. 5 years in a DA40 and 3 1/2 years now in a DA42 - 1,300 total flight hours. I just wish there were more service facility options. Especially with the DA42 with Continental 2.0 engines in them. My 600 hour service on my TAE-125-002 engines will be coming up within the next year and I don't want to be taken advantage of.

Similarly, I'm shopping the ADS/B out upgrade with the Garmin 345. Best price so far is $9,500.00. And it still won't integrate weather into my G1000's.

Kenneth, thank you for your recommendations of SouthTec and Flycorps. I will reach out to them as they are in my area. Thank you for you'alls recommendations on the West Coast, just too far to travel for me.

Last note - why is it I always and paying CRAZY shipping charges for batteries when these service shops know the batteries need to be replaced and could stock them but don't - just stick me with $200 plus shipping charges.
User avatar
CFIDave
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N333GX
Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 1473 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by CFIDave »

UncleSpud wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:54 pmLast note - why is it I always and paying CRAZY shipping charges for batteries when these service shops know the batteries need to be replaced and could stock them but don't - just stick me with $200 plus shipping charges.
Not sure which batteries you're describing:

For the DA42/DA62 engine ECU backup batteries, I order them from Amazon because they're listed in Diamond's parts guide with a standard Panasonic part number -- there's no reason you have to obtain them from Diamond shipped internationally from Canada. 4 12V Panasonic lead-acid batteries are quite heavy to ship. (You as the owner can legally replace these yourself if so inclined -- I've done this on both my DA42 and DA62, although it's a PITA to gain access under the back seats.)

For the DA42 (and later model DA40) emergency backup batteries to power the panel "steam gauge" electric attitude indicator and emergency lighting, those batteries must be ordered from Diamond. They're expensive to ship because they're lithium ion batteries that for safety reasons require special handling and thus can't be shipped by air (which is ironic since they're destined to be installed in an aircraft!)

If you're concerned about shipping costs, don't ever purchase a new Diamond aircraft. New owners are surprised that Diamond doesn't pay for shipping on warranty-related parts, which (in the US) must be shipped internationally from Canada or Europe. Years ago I needed a replacement radiator under warranty on my DA42-VI that had to get shipped from Silverstone, England (where they are made by a Formula 1 race-car parts supplier?). Diamond wanted me to pay the $1500 shipping cost until I loudly complained.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
User avatar
FlyingShrink
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:38 am
First Name: Veerindar
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N93YT
Airports: KRDU
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by FlyingShrink »

Dear Forum friends,

I am so glad this thread was started. I totally agree with you all that there should be a repository of resources and it is better for us to keep this information transparent. Knowledge sharing is important. We want our aircraft to be maintained to ensure our safety and we need to build that trusting relationship with our mechanics , yet not feel like we are taken advantage of. Not every one of us have the same positive experience with the same mechanic. so it is important to evaluate them based on more than one review. I guess what I am suggesting is that these mechanics should know that we are comparing notes and that they need to come up with a standard rate schedule for most of the routine work.
After my current experiences, I am now willing to fly my aircraft cross country to a reliable mechanic. My recent annual involves two API 's and one of them has been mentioned here as being very good. I do not question the skill set of these individuals but they certainly are not cost effective or consistent.
Here is a breakdown: Plane went to the shop number one Dec 30th 2018
The first shop charged me a base annual rate of 35 hrs ------------------------------------------2975.00
Clearing discrepancies, replacing washers, tire,brackets,
exhaust clamps ,batteries-was 49.3 hrs plus parts------------------------------------------------5953.02
Had some problems with ECU software when they tried to replace the memory cards
Finally in April they found out that my timing chain needed replacement (900 hrs) Sent to shop number 2

Second Shop: ( was going to do the ADS -b since the plane was in for the annual anyway)
My aircraft arrived at shop number 2 and was spewing oil from the left engine ( oil pressure sensing unit was left loose)
Second shop asked for advance of 5000.00 on credit card ,
so charged 5000 plus processing fee and TAX ----------------------------------------------------5500.00
Reinspected everything, replaced timing chain------------------------------------------------------18015.89
ADS-b installation( 9500.00 pus antennas 2500.00)
Timing chain ( labor 36.5 hrs plus parts) - 3900.00
Oil change again plus coolant again plus misc
Plane ready to be picked up, I get a call that the right engine has a faulty starter-----2000.00

The plane arrives finally back to my hanger in July 2019. WE find out the software for the G1000 does not recognize that I have aux tank, or TKS etc. I call the mechanic and he states that he 'forgot" to reprogram after installing ADS-b which by the way has failed the FAA test originally.

Current status- Plane in my hanger waiting for the mechanic to come and fix, but I am not a priority.
So NO MAJOR repairs, just the ADS =b installation, Timing chain replacement , starter ( which I doubt was the problem) and 7 months later and I will be due for an annual before I even fly it! Most of the delays were due to mechanics setting priorities elsewhere( vacations, holidays, Sun & Fun , etc)
I know this is an extreme example but highlights the fact we need that directory of all potential mechanics who will work with us.

Regards,

Veeru
User avatar
Davestation
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: D-JET
Aircraft Registration: NDJET
Airports: KFTW
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 100 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Davestation »

UncleSpud wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:54 pm
Similarly, I'm shopping the ADS/B out upgrade with the Garmin 345. Best price so far is $9,500.00. And it still won't integrate weather into my G1000's.
That seems pretty reasonable for ADS-b. I highly doubt you'll ever get weather sadly, they do not seem interested in updating the legacy softwares anymore and are instead pushing owners into the NXi.
Last note - why is it I always and paying CRAZY shipping charges for batteries when these service shops know the batteries need to be replaced and could stock them but don't - just stick me with $200 plus shipping charges.
Because they can. They don't want that money sitting on the shelf unless they go through a lot of them. I quickly realized that with a ten year shelf life we could order a dozen at a time and split the shipping, however at some point the shipping rules changed and Diamond said that at most they could ship 4 at a time - so now you're best bet is to pay around $50 in shipping.
User avatar
Karl
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:58 am
First Name: Karl
Aircraft Type: DA40
Airports:
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Karl »

This is the factory estimated hours for maintenance on TAE/Centurion/Continental engined aircraft.

It is only the inspection and does not include replacement of anything other than oils and filters.

It is a few years old and may not be entirely accurate today but should give some guidance on how many hours you should be being charged.
Attachments
Service hrs.JPG
User avatar
Davestation
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: D-JET
Aircraft Registration: NDJET
Airports: KFTW
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 100 times

Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Davestation »

Karl wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:30 am This is the factory estimated hours for maintenance on TAE/Centurion/Continental engined aircraft.

It is only the inspection and does not include replacement of anything other than oils and filters.

It is a few years old and may not be entirely accurate today but should give some guidance on how many hours you should be being charged.
I always billed in that ballpark including the obvious replacements. Seemed silly to charge a certain number of hours for a Twinstar annual and then extra for replacing ECU batteries when they're always part of a standard annual. I suppose that's a common sales trick though - quote low to get them in and then slap them with a bunch of mandatory overages.
Post Reply