Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Any DA42 related topics.

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neema
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by neema »

Colin

No 62 for us. If the 42 experience was going a little better, I’d push the 62 idea.

The Epic is expectedly pricier, but ends up being around $20k a year for mx, barring a prop OH or brakes that can balloon costs.

PM me about the Colorado shop... I’m assuming it’s the one Dave went to?


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meowmeow
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by meowmeow »

Colin wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:35 pm I will be very interested to hear about Take Flight, since they are a lot closer to me (at least when I am based at OWD) than any of the other shops I've been using regularly.

What shop are people using in the Seattle area?
Galvin at KBFI and Ace at KRNT both can service Diamond planes.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by xyzbobxyz »

Why aren't folks identifying the shops that are raking them? This is all factual information so there is no potential libel type liability - I assume nobody ever agrees to any non-disclosure agreements.

Yelp, Facebook and Google Reviews revolutionized the independent consumer experience. Sharing information about good and bad shops helps accelerate Darwinism and will keep places honest.

I also think that in addition to nurses, truck drivers and pilots - the world needs a lot more flight mechanics, avionic specialists and related shops. Anyone want to start a business with me :P
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Davestation
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Davestation »

xyzbobxyz wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:49 pm Why aren't folks identifying the shops that are raking them? This is all factual information so there is no potential libel type liability - I assume nobody ever agrees to any non-disclosure agreements.
I'm not sure what the board rules are or if those come into play, but in all fairness "raking" is pretty subjective. I assume people aren't being specific because they are giving the shop the benefit of the doubt, or at least don't want to destroy it based on their one negative experience. I bet if everyone here blackballed a shop for charging them too much we'd quickly come to a point where there are no white-listed shops left.

Besides, as far as prices go the shop itself is but one of three major elements - labor rates vary by location and overall mx costs vary by plane condition. On here we only get one side of the story - and to play devil's advocate: you agreed to a price, you flew away without incident, and then you complained online about that price being too high.

Now if you had a pretty objective situation like "they charged me for an emergency battery and then I found out it wasn't actually replaced", that would certainly be worth sharing. A shop that does that sort of thing should be run right off the airport. They probably could go after you for publishing it, in all unlikeliness, but if you have proof then they don't really have a leg to stand on anyway.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by xyzbobxyz »

Davestation wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:46 am
xyzbobxyz wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:49 pm Why aren't folks identifying the shops that are raking them? This is all factual information so there is no potential libel type liability - I assume nobody ever agrees to any non-disclosure agreements.
I'm not sure what the board rules are or if those come into play, but in all fairness "raking" is pretty subjective. I assume people aren't being specific because they are giving the shop the benefit of the doubt, or at least don't want to destroy it based on their one negative experience. I bet if everyone here blackballed a shop for charging them too much we'd quickly come to a point where there are no white-listed shops left.

Besides, as far as prices go the shop itself is but one of three major elements - labor rates vary by location and overall mx costs vary by plane condition. On here we only get one side of the story - and to play devil's advocate: you agreed to a price, you flew away without incident, and then you complained online about that price being too high.

Now if you had a pretty objective situation like "they charged me for an emergency battery and then I found out it wasn't actually replaced", that would certainly be worth sharing. A shop that does that sort of thing should be run right off the airport. They probably could go after you for publishing it, in all unlikeliness, but if you have proof then they don't really have a leg to stand on anyway.
I understand - but that is also why volume becomes important. I complain about shop X, but then Joe shares his experience with Shop X as does Jim. If these are mixed results, then in the very least, one knows to verbalize exactly what they want done or not done and see how the shop responds. Maybe they are consistently positive or negative thereby providing some real insight.

Alternatively, I share the pricing I experience at Shop Y, Joe shares the pricing he experienced at Shop Z - about 150 miles away. Now, the readers have access to pricing information.

Like Yelp, maybe this encourages shop owners to become more cognitive about these Boards and responsive. Yelp 101. There are a finite number of Diamond qualified shops - so of all the Boards, this one would seemingly offer the most utility. Plus, participation begets participation. The only ones that should be concerned about such activity are

It simply seems that the internet has provided a tool empowering the individual consumer with a louder voice than ever before. I often use Yelp and Google reviews in choosing restaurants, hotels, etc. I have used the Beech forum for selecting Avionics and plan to use it again to narrow and possibly select a vendor to paint my aircraft. I simply think this would be a great resource and increase the value of this place if everybody fully shared their mechanic experience including name, location, pricing and opinion of the work done.

I would offer mine, but my guy doesn't work on Diamond so it would offer no value. I will share that I have found the avionics guy up in Waukesha to be the fairest and best priced - but he ha a line around the block so good luck getting in his hangar... I also learned from another board that having my seats removed during the annual and taking them to a local upholsterguy creates a very economical way to redo the covers with proper fire retardant covering without the airplane owner tax. My new Bonnie covers look awesome and are even embroidered with make, model and tail number.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Karl »

Be careful not to set a precedent.

I am sure the maintenance guys read these forums too. What happens if the shop owners open a discussion about which owners are a pain in the arse, always wanting a discount, don't pay their bills on time or always bitch on social media about the maintenance shops?

As both a pilot and an engineer I see both sides of the coin and I can tell you most issues are a misunderstanding. Just like in any relationship its difficult to get 2 human beings with the same expectations, especially when one wants to hand over the least amount of money possible and the other wants the highest amount possible handed over.
To put it a different way, the customer always expects more for his money and the workshop never wants to do more than they are being paid for.

It is best to put everything in writing. Write down everything you expect to be done to your plane, your workshop agrees, gives you a quote and you both sign to say you accept. If the workshop finds anything extra it has to be agreed by email before proceeding.
Remember tasks can take longer than planned. It once took a whole day just to open a baggage door. Later we found out the owner had re-glued the seal but closed the door before the glue was dry. The owner didn't want to pay an extra 6-hour labor bill just for inspecting a baggage bay despite the fact it was not the fault of the workshop.

Yes if someone trashes your plane and doesn't want to pay for the damage then speak up, but try not to be negative about your engineer over a simple misunderstanding about charges. You may need their help someday.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by xyzbobxyz »

Karl wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:40 pm Be careful not to set a precedent.

I am sure the maintenance guys read these forums too. What happens if the shop owners open a discussion about which owners are a pain in the arse, always wanting a discount, don't pay their bills on time or always bitch on social media about the maintenance shops?

As both a pilot and an engineer I see both sides of the coin and I can tell you most issues are a misunderstanding. Just like in any relationship its difficult to get 2 human beings with the same expectations, especially when one wants to hand over the least amount of money possible and the other wants the highest amount possible handed over.
To put it a different way, the customer always expects more for his money and the workshop never wants to do more than they are being paid for.

It is best to put everything in writing. Write down everything you expect to be done to your plane, your workshop agrees, gives you a quote and you both sign to say you accept. If the workshop finds anything extra it has to be agreed by email before proceeding.
Remember tasks can take longer than planned. It once took a whole day just to open a baggage door. Later we found out the owner had re-glued the seal but closed the door before the glue was dry. The owner didn't want to pay an extra 6-hour labor bill just for inspecting a baggage bay despite the fact it was not the fault of the workshop.

Yes if someone trashes your plane and doesn't want to pay for the damage then speak up, but try not to be negative about your engineer over a simple misunderstanding about charges. You may need their help someday.
Well, obviously Yelp hasn't led to that although Uber has. Still, I see no problem. If that causes hard arse customer to learn to become better humans, then the world is a better place. I think open and transparent discussion leads to the better experience across the board. Keep in mind, like Yelp, there is nothing wrong nor to prevent a shop owner from responding to posts - just like Yelp. And readers (give them some credit) can usually read between the lines and get a feel for the underlying individuals.

I am both a reviewing person and a business owner. Admittedly, I have had to swallow some pride as the latter. Once upon a time, this country boasted unmatched service industry borne on the principle that the customer is always right. That has long since disappeared. And for way too long, the individual consumer has more often been the victim than the service provider. The consumer had few options - complain? To who? Sue? How and at what expense? Yelp and Google and Facebook changed that dynamic.

My competitors resisted. Stubbornly ignoring reviews and continuing their hardcore approach. Many of them are gone, replaced by newer businesses like mine that have learned Yelp 101. We have learned when to battle online and when to lay down the sword. But most importantly, we are very aware that every customer represents a review - and people prefer to complain than to praise in them. In my industry, the business model has changed. We cater to customers, we work hard to earn their respect, not demand it, we have returned to the long lost notion of customer satisfaction. And this goes from the top to the bottom. Mine is a service industry for an expensive hobby and ripe for dissatisfaction - and there are several of us with a stellar online presence despite selling very expensive lessons and gear.

So, whenever I hear any unwillingness to speak openly, name names, talk about prices, services, experiences - I tend to believe that the underlying speaker is afraid of what will be said. If you believe in your business, your people, your services, your ability to manage - then you can surf your online presence to take market share away from those that don't. This is becoming the age of the consumer - I think this forum should encourage and promote it. It is here for Diamond owners (and potential ones :) ) first. Other visitors should consider themselves guests and take advantage of opportunities here to develop relationships - good, positive relationships. I have already met one such Diamond business related member here - and have been very impressed with his professionalism and networking approach.

Sorry for the too long, didn't read post. I kind of have a passion for this particular topic.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by ememic99 »

xyzbobxyz wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:47 pm But most importantly, we are very aware that every customer represents a review - and people prefer to complain than to praise in them. In my industry, the business model has changed.
You're right, unfortunately people more often complain than praise good service. However, that doesn't mean we should refrain from criticism and shouldn't speak/write openly on positive and negative aspects of service we've received. I don't have any problem of publicly confronting the arguments and to stand corrected if I'm wrong. In the same manner I always use the opportunity to praise good service and recommend it to people who might need it.
xyzbobxyz wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:47 pm I think this forum should encourage and promote it. It is here for Diamond owners (and potential ones) first. Other visitors should consider themselves guests and take advantage of opportunities here to develop relationships - good, positive relationships.
I see this as a key point in your post. In the same way as we discuss about the solutions, spare parts and flying experience, we can be extremely helpful to each other by sharing reviews about aviation shops that we've done some business with. Sharing (generally) negative opinion on Diamond's post-sales customer care led to an opportunity to meet Diamond and Garmin management and express our concerns and demand the solutions.
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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by FlyingShrink »

Colin and Neema,

I wrote several posts ago about my experience which is similar to yours in terms of maintenance.I am still dealing with an ADS-B issue that has not been resolved despite two trips. Now back in the shop after being "grounded" by the FAA for failure of the ADS-B in flight. Just to clarify to all, this is not a mechanic bashing exercise,( IN fact I have a good relationship with my shop ) but an attempt to be transparent and contain costs for all Diamond DA 42 lovers. We depend on them to keep us safe and not have any Quacks. I do hope that the maintenance guys do read and contribute to this forum . Sometimes the explanation may provide the clarity we need.
The fact is that there is a trade off because we enjoy the DA 42 but the fleet is not as big as the Cirrus or Cessna to get cheap parts. I think we should not be restricted to the regions but compare costs and be willing to fly a little distance to get good service.

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Re: Diamond Owners Being Taken Advantage Of - Maintenance

Post by Deanrobert »

I’m a new contributor.. been a da42NG owner for 6 years, fly approx 100 hrs / year. We used A&M out of Bolingbrook for 4 years until they folded . Last two annuals with Symetry in Bloomington (BMI). Nice guys, but our annuals went from an average of 8k to over 17k the last two years.. we have 1700 TT and 925 hrs on engines/ props since the 2010 NG conversion .
The last annual included the 4 year bonding check which cost $3200 in labor to address 25 failed points...
Are these numbers reasonable ?
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