G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray
- TimS
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:10 am
- First Name: Timothy
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Aircraft Registration: N1446C
- Airports: 6B6 Stowe MA
- Has thanked: 94 times
- Been thanked: 97 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
I know KA G1000 flight deck was installed by Garmin owned by STC. So it would make sense they would complete the STC to upgrade since they own it.
Tim
Tim
- yl472401
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Sat May 16, 2020 5:02 pm
- First Name: Bryan
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N890US
- Airports: 1C5
- Has thanked: 68 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
I could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RG.pietromarx wrote:I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Diamond DA40, Diamond DA42NG, PPL, IR
- Boatguy
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1827
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
- First Name: Russ
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N962M
- Airports: KSTS
- Has thanked: 1328 times
- Been thanked: 1163 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
I think it's far less nefarious and you should be angry with Garmin, not Diamond. It's a simple issue of economics. Who wants to spend money certifying a solution? There is nothing in it for Diamond other than customer goodwill. Goodwill is good and could/should lead to positive referrals to Diamond for new planes; but it's soft, especially when Diamond is struggling to meet the demand it already has. However, there is cash in it Garmin. So who will spend money to get the configuration certified? At the moment it would appear nobody, which means there is not enough money in it to attract Garmin after market interest. There simply aren't enough potential G1000NXi buyers to justify the certification expense.yl472401 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 pmI could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RG.pietromarx wrote:I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
However, if that configuration is already certified (e.g., DA40-180) because it was a production configuration in the past, or present, then certification is not an issue and I think it's a simple manner of asking your Garmin dealer to perform the work.
- ememic99
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
- First Name: Emir
- Aircraft Type: DA42
- Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
- Airports: LDZA LDVA
- Has thanked: 203 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.Boatguy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:55 pmI think it's far less nefarious and you should be angry with Garmin, not Diamond. It's a simple issue of economics. Who wants to spend money certifying a solution? There is nothing in it for Diamond other than customer goodwill. Goodwill is good and could/should lead to positive referrals to Diamond for new planes; but it's soft, especially when Diamond is struggling to meet the demand it already has. However, there is cash in it Garmin. So who will spend money to get the configuration certified? At the moment it would appear nobody, which means there is not enough money in it to attract Garmin after market interest. There simply aren't enough potential G1000NXi buyers to justify the certification expense.yl472401 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 pmI could easily see that coming when they are trying to push for 40NG and asking 1.4M for 50RG.pietromarx wrote:
I hope that this is not what's happening. If so, I would walk away from Diamond here, now, forever. The situation has gotten quite old and I, for one, am (finally) running out of patience.
However, if that configuration is already certified (e.g., DA40-180) because it was a production configuration in the past, or present, then certification is not an issue and I think it's a simple manner of asking your Garmin dealer to perform the work.
- Boatguy
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1827
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
- First Name: Russ
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N962M
- Airports: KSTS
- Has thanked: 1328 times
- Been thanked: 1163 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
You're suggesting that Garmin wants to offer the upgrade but DAI is preventing them from doing so?ememic99 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:23 pm Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.
- ememic99
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
- First Name: Emir
- Aircraft Type: DA42
- Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
- Airports: LDZA LDVA
- Has thanked: 203 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
Not that I know but this is the legal framework that Garmin uses to put the sole blame on DAI. While DAI gives excuses that Garmin doesn’t have sufficient resources and that they have to prioritize development requests sent towards Garmin and obviously new aircrafts have the advantage.Boatguy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:26 pmYou're suggesting that Garmin wants to offer the upgrade but DAI is preventing them from doing so?ememic99 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:23 pm Legally DAI owns TC and only DAI can require upgrade to be developed. The party willing to invest in STC should first clarify ownership issue with DAI and then pay Garmin to perform the work. So even if Garmin wanted to offer the upgrade to the market, they would have to ask DAI to grant them right to do that. On top of that someone has to ensure the airframe which is definitely easier for DAI than for Garmin.
- dant
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:45 am
- First Name: Dan
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N787DM
- Airports: KPAE
- Has thanked: 49 times
- Been thanked: 59 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?
This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
- pietromarx
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:52 am
- First Name: Peter
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: NZZZ
- Airports: KWHP
- Has thanked: 29 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
That is the core issue.dant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:55 am Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?
This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
Other manufacturers have traditionally allowed many upgrade paths. In this case, Diamond has effectively and slowly orphaned DA-40-180s, their most popular product, by not providing transparent and reliable upgrade paths. While we assume this is only applicable to G1000s, the fact remains that the same situation has been set up for the NXi airplanes, too. The ICs and support components in the electronics are continually "end-of-lifed" and, like an Apple II or an original IBM PC, the products simply stop existing over time.
Diamond needs to address this issue relatively soon as the components will start failing in greater numbers, etc.
- TimS
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:10 am
- First Name: Timothy
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Aircraft Registration: N1446C
- Airports: 6B6 Stowe MA
- Has thanked: 94 times
- Been thanked: 97 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
No, Garmin was not the first. neither was Avidyne. However, the first systems were on much larger more expensive planes; think multi million dollar business planes and airliners. The majority of these plane owners are used to avionics upgrades that run a quarter million or more, and are only good for fifteen years. Most of the aircraft only get one or two upgrades before they have been exported or sent to the junk yard; mostly due to noise restrictions.dant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:55 am Is the G1000 the first real widespread glass flight deck? Are there no other solutions that have been migrated or phased forward to look to as examples?
This isn't just a Diamond problem - everyone with G1000 will need a way to move forward as parts disappear. And *someone* had to know this was going to happen, and I really hope their plan wasn't just to sell all these planes that will be grounded until ~their entire flight deck~ is replaced in under 20 years.
We are only now still at the leading edge of 30 year old SETPs which need new avionics, and the upgrades are being done at a quarter mill each, but the plane is worth a million. So the math is a lot easier for the owner to swallow.
For use piston pounders, the flight deck upgrade of a 100K in many cases is a much more significant portion of the value of the plane, if not more than the value of the plane. It makes it a lot harder to justify for the owner when it does not fundamentally increase the airplane capabilities. So, that means fewer owners pursue it, and than means fewer buyers which means each one must be priced higher which means fewer will buy it... it becomes a self vicious circle.
I watched Avidyne and others try and break the circle. So far, none have been successful; and I doubt any will be.
Tim
- dant
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:45 am
- First Name: Dan
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N787DM
- Airports: KPAE
- Has thanked: 49 times
- Been thanked: 59 times
Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program
Guess we need another one of those aviation-wide STCs for in-place swaps, like G100UL
I think Garmin needs to be on this if they care at all about the sub 700k aircraft market (which they may not). If it becomes clear that airplanes are effectively "time between replacement" when they have integrated flight decks, then people will stop buying them.
I'm not 100% sure how integrated an 'integrated flight deck" is. Is this something where people can just swap out for piecemeal glass avionics the way that the steam gauge folks have?
I think Garmin needs to be on this if they care at all about the sub 700k aircraft market (which they may not). If it becomes clear that airplanes are effectively "time between replacement" when they have integrated flight decks, then people will stop buying them.
I'm not 100% sure how integrated an 'integrated flight deck" is. Is this something where people can just swap out for piecemeal glass avionics the way that the steam gauge folks have?