ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

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ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby HPNAviator » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:29 pm

Looks like those of us with G1000's and the Avidyne TAS 600 has two options for ADS-B Out and In both at approximately the same price.

The options below assume WAAS G1000 but would work also for those without WAAS by installing the GTX 3x5 with WAAS GPS.

Option 1: Install GTX 345R @ $4,995 and either keep or remove both the GDL69A and the TAS 600. Benefit would be weight savings and the ability to get weather and traffic on iPad in addition to the G1000 as well as savings on XM subscriptions and potential for some trade in value for the GDL69A and TAS 600.

Option 2. Install GTX 335R @ $2,995 and upgrade TAS 600 to TAS 605A @ $2,000 (special upgrade price). Keep XM for weather and the TAS 605A for Traffic. Benefits would be the better weather products offered by XM and traffic coverage in places where ADS-B is not prevalent. No weather and traffic on the iPad.

Would like to solicit the thoughts of my fellow pilots and DA40 owners as I see pro's and con's for both approaches.

As an aside I received an email from Avidyne this week to say that certification of the ADS-B in software for the TAS 605A should be complete shortly.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby smoss » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:31 pm

I need clarification please on how the GTX gets the info for ADS-B "out". Specifically, does it only show the traffic that is broadcast to it by the ground stations, similar to current TIS, or does it also, on it's own, "ping" nearby surrounding transponders and/or ADS-B transmitters and show everyone nearby in any situation, similar to the TAS 600 for traditional transponders? Obviously, if it is only showing hits broadcast to you from the ground, keeping the TAS 600 is huge, as there are large areas it is not available. If it "pings" all nearby ADS-B emitters on its own (and if so, what would the range be???), then the TAS 600 will become paperweight.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby HPNAviator » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:41 pm

The GTX 345R is a dual frequency ADS-B in device so it receive traffic from planes in the air on 1090Mhz and 768Mhz (UAT) and and also traffic from the ground re-broadcast stations. Said another way it is NOT an active traffic device like the Avidyne TAS.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby smoss » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:37 pm

understood it is not "active", but still unclear if it gets info direct from other planes nearby, or only rebroadcast from the ground stations after the other planes transmit. The Garmin literature makes it sound like only gets the rebroadcast, not direct hits from other planes. And if it does get hits directly from other planes, there is absolutely no mention anywhere of what the range would be.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby Rich » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:22 pm

smoss wrote:understood it is not "active", but still unclear if it gets info direct from other planes nearby, or only rebroadcast from the ground stations after the other planes transmit. The Garmin literature makes it sound like only gets the rebroadcast, not direct hits from other planes. And if it does get hits directly from other planes, there is absolutely no mention anywhere of what the range would be.


ADS-B in (dual-band) will receive ADS-B out broadcasts directly from any plane with ADS-B out, which should always be turned on. The notion of "pinging" in this scenario is obsolete, as ADS-B out is not sent in response to a ping, but actively broadcasts repeatedly (hence the "Automatic" in ADS-B). I experience this today, as I have no tower access on the ground at my home airport but do get to see some traffic (including N-number) at the airport.

Range is going to be line-of-sight (between you and the target) at these frequencies, but subject to being blocked by terrain, naturally. I typically have foreflight suppress distant (vertically or horizontally) targets, as I don't need to see that Alaska Airlines jet passing overhead 4 miles above.

The current state of things where some (currently a minority of GA) aircraft are ADS-B out equipped means you would get some targets away from radar environments via active pinging that you would otherwise not get. In environments where there is radar coverages and ADS-B tower availability you'll see everything with mode-C, mode-S, or ADS-B out, either directly (in the latter case) of fed through the ADS-B tower(s).
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby smoss » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:37 pm

Thanks Rich for the explanation. So indeed, come 2020, the TAS600 will be obsolete, except perhaps if someone were flying around in the middle of nowhere without ADS-B, but still with a legacy transponder, which I imagine would be pretty rare. Obvioulsy the TAS600 is very helpful until then, but after then, not sure why anyone would opt to get the "in" through the TAS600 instead of through the GTX, opting for 2 additional installs and configurations instead of 1.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby Lou » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:58 pm

This is good stuff. Thanks. I am trying to figure out how this will play in Canada, since Nav Canada is rolling out space based ADS-B I think at the end of 2018 using the Iridium satellite network. Not clear if they will be carrying Nexrad or not. Keeping the TAS and GDL69 may be the option up here.

Anyone have any insight?
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby CFIDave » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:10 am

A couple of observations:

- The Avidyne TAS600-series "A" models when eventually upgraded to ADS-B will only directly receive traffic broadcasts from 1090ES-equipped planes, not directly from UAT-equipped planes. Avidyne TAS units will thus be dependent on being within range of ADS-B ground stations that can receive broadcasts from UAT-equipped aircraft, then translate and retransmit that traffic info on 1090 MHz to the Avidyne unit. In contrast, the new Garmin GTX 345R can directly receive both 1090ES and UAT broadcasts, so it's not dependent on ADS-B ground stations as relays (except for non-ADS-B planes using just transponders).

If Avidyne had come out with their TAS "A" models with ADS-B IN years ago as originally promised, they might have sold a few upgrades, but now they compare unfavorably to the GTX 345R for ADS-B IN. And of course the Avidyne unit won't also provide free ADS-B weather.

- Regarding range, I was able to conduct an interesting experiment while out over open water far away from any ADS-B ground stations while flying to Turks & Caicos islands past the Bahamas. I was talking on the radio to a friend with a Piper Arrow and we were trying to find each other as I overtook him flying on the same airway only 2000 feet apart in altitude. His Arrow had just a transponder (no ADS-B Out), but he had a portable Stratus/iPad/Foreflight onboard for ADS-B In. I was flying my DA42 equipped with working ADS-B Out due to a Garmin GTX33ES transponder upgrade, and a TAS605 active traffic system without any ADS-B In capabilities. As I started catching up to his Arrow, he reported being able to see my DA42 (broadcasting ADS-B including my tail number ) *long* before I could see his transponder using my TAS605. I was quite jealous. ;)

So I think people may be pleasantly surprised how much better ADS-B traffic detection works vs. today's ability to ping or see transponder targets via an active traffic system.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby Rich » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:45 pm

As Dave points out, whichever ADS-B out one chooses, it behooves you to have ADS-B in be dual-band, so you can pick up direct position reports from folks who chose a different ADS-B out than you. Most ADS-B solution seem to be dual-band "in". But not all.

And Wx is only supplied on 978 UAT in, as 1090ES lacks packet size/bandwidth to be able to carry the info.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Postby ricksigler » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:42 pm

This is from Avidyne's forum "Why is an Active Traffic System like the Avidyne TAS600 Series still important in an ADS-B environment?

Active Traffic Systems (including TAS and TCAS) use Mode-A, C, or S transponder interrogations to determine aircraft bearing and distance. Altitude is determined by reported Mode-C altitude. After the ADS-B mandate, aircraft will still be required to have a Mode-C or S transponder in airspace where it is currently required, thus Active Traffic Systems will continue to function."

Hopefully, I won't have to pay for the GTX345 and just get the GTX335 since I already have TAS600 and XM weather.

ADS-B is just another expense for me without much benefit.

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