DA42-VI vs BRS

Open for questions of visitors of DAN. Posts of our guests are on moderation queue.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

scguest

DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby scguest » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:05 am

Team, I talked to BRS and they would be willing to STC any plane I bring (or almost). Obviously there are implication with the FAA and certification but let's set this aside for now. How much room (dimensions?/weight allowed?) is the front baggage compartment? I will try to get the dimensions from BRS. Thanks. And please don't ask me why, every GA plane should have BRS like every car has ABS and airbags, but this is because I fly with family and they don't deserve to die if someone else screws up or if I screw up (we know that 75% of fatals are pilot induced so :) Thanks again
scguest

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby scguest » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:45 pm

Turns out that the front compartment would be way too small. So my hope of installing BRS would behind the back seats, I suppose 100 lbs max is allowed there.

Diamond does not seem to be interested in BRS in any plane including the DA50-VI or VII, I did not see any information about that, regrettably.
H60 pilot

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby H60 pilot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:57 am

I wouldn't admonish any body for desiring a full airframe parachute, but I suggest you also consider the fact that BRS is only a system aboard the aircraft like so many others. And in terms of safety features, a ballistic parachute is hardly an active one. There are many safety features unique to the Diamond product line regardless of the absence of BRS, features that heavily favor Diamond aircraft as apposed to those with chutes. ". . . every GA plane should have BRS like every car has ABS and airbags . . ." Diamond offers envelope protection via Garmin and AmSafe seat belts providing much the automotive equivalent for aviation you speak of. Now whereas you claim every GA plane needs BRS, I say every GA plane needs crash resistant fuel cells, which to my knowledge ONLY Diamond offers. The incidence of post crash fires that have led to fatalities among Cirrus owners is no minor detail for me or my family.
scguest

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby scguest » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:03 pm

Thanks H60. Yes, BRS is not a safety feature per se (since it adds weight, one could argue it actually impede performance) but may be "your last chance" when everything else has gone wrong. Though, obviously, BRS is of no help below 500 feet, landing accidents or frontal mid-air collisions. I would consider eSafe, if available, to be more valuable than BRS, especially on a twin (which is safer than a single with BRS when flying over very hostile terrain). But eSafe is nowhere to be seen? I agree SynVis, ESP/USP (but is underspeed protection on the DA42?), traffic info are great safety features.
Could you point me to Cirrus accident reports showing post impact fire? Or otherwise provide more convincing arguments that I should stop being fixated on BRS?
Thanks.
User avatar
pietromarx
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Peter
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: NZZZ
Airport: KWHP

Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:52 am
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby pietromarx » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:52 pm

Not to step too firmly into a painful topic, but the insurance companies seem to have spoken quite loudly on the issue of "Diamond vs. BRS-equipped airplanes" with much lower premium rates for the Diamonds. While BRS was quite attractive when it came out for experimentals and other aircraft who didn't have the full FAR 23 certification process, it seems to have been quite a mixed bag for FAR 23 aircraft (at best). Further, the spin characteristics, stall behavior, sink rates, fuel system design, AMSafe belts, and so forth in the Diamonds are preferable in my mind to the same measures found in other aircraft. Finally, personal minima are useful. I fly over mountains here in California on almost every flight, but I never fly over them in both IMC and at night. I'd rather sleep in a hotel where my biggest issue might be that I fell out of bed...
H60 Pilot

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby H60 Pilot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:33 pm

I would love to just "right-click" and post links but I'm currently going thru the embarrassing Apple transition, just realized I don't know how to copy and paste on my MacBook Pro 8)

But the information I'm privy too is nothing spectacular, just open sources such as the NTSB database or Kathryn's Report. Obviously Cirrus aircraft are the BRS punching bag for statistics, a simple search for these aircraft will yield all the information I could offer you.

One thing I believe is notable among Cirrus accidents is this: due to the presence of a rocket propelled parachute, how many of those post crash fires were ignited by the impact launch of CAPS? I couldn't answer this with certainty, but I'm guessing compromised wet wings and burning rocket motors aren't an accident-pilot's friend.

I live in Hawaii so I remember these two events well: on the 26th of January 2015 two aircraft ditched beyond the horizon into the open ocean. One, a Cirrus SR22 carrying only the pilot descended into the Pacific under canopy during daylight hours and was recovered by a Cruise ship. The second, a C172 carrying three adults and a baby, ditched during hours of total darkness into the same waters and was rescued by Coasties hours later.

You may well have read and seen on video the former, as Cirrus made an epic PR event from the incident. However by this rationale, wouldn't Cessna be the clear victor in terms of accident survivability? Saving 4x the number of occupants under much worse circumstances? And yet the latter accident is relatively unknown by many.

I think BRS is a good idea, obviously, a great tool to the aviator in his pilot tool bag. But it's the aggregate of these tools that make a great product in the first place. Diamond offers numerous features for the pilot to leverage, it would seem as though BRS is the only tool absent in this case. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it's missing exactly. Cirrus on the other hand places all to much hope in BRS to do the life saving. Funny thing is, as Cirrus has improved upon their accident ratio, it hasn't been on account of CAPS but mitigating loss of control in the first place. A phenomena Diamond has had little trouble with.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Rich
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: N40XE
Airport: S39

Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby Rich » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:11 pm

scguest wrote:Could you point me to Cirrus accident reports showing post impact fire?

Examples of Cirrus crash fires are wildly numerous. Check out the NTSB accident report site and select Cirrus as the make and limit to fatal accidents. You'll see plenty. There was one midair near Boulder, CO in 2010 where the CAPS was deployed but the SR20 caught fire right in the collision and gently floated to earth, burning ferociously all the way down.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx
scguest

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby scguest » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:43 pm

Thanks Rich. Incidentally I am not seeing any DA42 accidents in that database though it seems to be a worldwide database (for example there is no mention of last year fatal in Thailand).
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Rich
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: N40XE
Airport: S39

Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby Rich » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:40 pm

scguest wrote:Thanks Rich. Incidentally I am not seeing any DA42 accidents in that database though it seems to be a worldwide database (for example there is no mention of last year fatal in Thailand).


It's a little unclear how accidents do or do not wind up in this database. I think it's based on whether the US NTSB gets involved. For some foreign accidents they do. It may also have to do with whether the aircraft is US-registry or not.
But you are correct. It is not a complete view. And "incidents" (gear-collapse and such) don't make it in here.
scguest

Re: DA42-VI vs BRS

Postby scguest » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:33 am

So there has been no DA42 (all versions) accident in the USA ever? How many are there, less than 50? Thx.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest