Overflight Rights

Your tripreports, airport experiences, etc. are welcome here.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
dgger
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Peter
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: DGGER

Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Overflight Rights

Postby dgger » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:57 am

Planning future trips I started to do a bit of research and was browsing through AIPs. Admittedly, I am a bit confused how to determine which country claims authority over airspace. In particular is it not clear to me what makes a nation claim authority over airspace outside its territorial boundaries. I like to think, that I have seen different approaches.

For instance does the U.S. AIP make it clear that overflight over its territorial airspace requires authorization. However, it would appear that passing through U.S. managed FIRs at least 12 NM off shore (and not penetrating the ADIZ) does not. I have done just that and the FIR in question, Miami in my case, did not seem to care.

On the contrary, Cuba takes a different approach. I remember entering into lengthy discussion to route around a squall line through the Havanna FIR - despite being more then 50NM off shore and free of any kind of restricted airspace. While Havanna ultimately was supportive they made it clear, that an exception had been made.

It is even more confusing, when countries have given up control over their airspace. With whom would you request overflight rights? The authority the manages the FIR or the country over whose territory you overfly? I am lost. Can anyone clue me in?
User avatar
wolfvoador
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Wolfgang
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: N430PS
Airport: MYNN NASSAU BAHAMAS

Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:44 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby wolfvoador » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:14 pm

Hello, from a pilot flying frequently South of Bahamas, but without having studies international airspace law: Miami FIR stretches all over Bahamas and around Turks&Caicos, and clearly no authorization is needed, unless you enter US ADIZ. Cuba FIR stretches over Bahamas water and islands, for example Ragged Island, Bahamas MYRD is 30 nm into Cuban FIR if you approach from Nassau. On a flight following with Miami into MYRD they asked me if I had permission to fly into Cuban airspace, I said no, they told me Havana doesn't see me anyhow on primary, just turn transponder off and don't call Havana. In meantime, I had been a couple of times to MYRD, never any issue.
User avatar
dgger
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Peter
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: DGGER

Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby dgger » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:42 am

wolfvoador wrote:I said no, they told me Havana doesn't see me anyhow on primary, just turn transponder off and don't call Havana.

Haha! That might work VFR and around Cuba, but I wouldn't want to bet on other countries' military's inability to intercept in parts of the world...

But I hear, you have experienced that same inconsistency. In this particular case I just cannot see, why the Bahamas would tolerate Cuban control of airspace over their territory. This really puzzles me.

However, chances are we are just witnessing an authoritative overreach here. If anything, I would have guessed that FIRs extending off-shore are simply managed by ATC from a neighbouring country, but that the corresponding CAAs do not possess any kind of rule-making authority. Question for you: I recall you crossing from Cap Verde into Brasil which likely took you through the Dakar FIR. Did you have to apply for an overflight authorization? Senegal seems to require those.
User avatar
wolfvoador
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Wolfgang
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: N430PS
Airport: MYNN NASSAU BAHAMAS

Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:44 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby wolfvoador » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:12 am

Hello, good observer! But Cabo Verde - Brazil you need only to file the flight plan, Dakar obviously had it, no special request. Brazil needs an overflight and landing permit, see http://www2.anac.gov.br/ingles/overflightLanding.asp . The only countries I had noticed requiring an overflight permit if you don't even land there, besides Brazil, is Cuba, via e-mail 'aviacion general' <aviaciongeneralhav@hav.ecasa.avianet.cu>; 'HAV' <opshav@hav.ecasa.avianet.cu>; Even Venezuela does not require it. Nor the US (flew several times Bahamas-Mexico over Florida Keys)
User avatar
dgger
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Peter
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: DGGER

Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby dgger » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:12 pm

Well, maybe we are getting there. Ultimately, I am trying to figure out whether or not I can get around overflight authorizations by flying 12NM+ off-shore. Take Senegal for instance. Senegal requires an authorization for private flights overflying its territories (http://www.ais-asecna.org/pdf/gen/gen-1-2/13gen1-2-01.pdf, article 3). How did you get to the Cape Verdes? Any chance you flew through the Dakar FIR off-shore Senegal or did you route through the Canaries FIR? If you flew through the Dakar FIR, that would probably mean I can fly off the Senegal coast without any authorization.

wolfvoador wrote:The only countries I had noticed requiring an overflight permit if you don't even land there, besides Brazil, is Cuba, via e-mail 'aviacion general' <aviaciongeneralhav@hav.ecasa.avianet.cu>; 'HAV' <opshav@hav.ecasa.avianet.cu>;
I started to do some research for a tour and I found a number of African and Asian countries actually do require prior authorization. I also remember being chased out of Belize airspace for the lack of an authorization.

wolfvoador wrote:Nor the US (flew several times Bahamas-Mexico over Florida Keys)
I would guess you are considered local to the U.S. given you are flying an N registration. Yes, that would allow you to pass through U.S. airspace.

For everyone else it is a bit more complex than that. Not only does it required an significant paper trail to enter U.S. airspace. On a private flight you are generally required to land unless you have procured an exemption (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aip.pdf, GEN 1.2 4.3 & 4.5). I actually considered to physically route around that paper trail enroute from Canada to Mexico (via Bermuda, Bahamas, Cuba), but that would have created even more problems. And unlike Cuba I can only assume that the U.S. has both an operational primary radar as well as meaningful enforcement of its airspace boundaries. ;)
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Colin
Aircraft: DA42
Registration: N972RD
Airport: KSMO

Posts: 1220
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 131 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby Colin » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:48 pm

Yeah, there are all sorts of things I might mess around with. Flying into Cuba's airspace, any airspace they *thought* was theirs, isn't one of them. I still remember the little planes that got shot down by real live fighters. That seems like a bad risk to take.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~2,300hrs
colin@mightycheese.com
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
dgger
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Peter
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: DGGER

Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby dgger » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:45 pm

Very good point. This goes somewhat beyond border control, though. An interception, if even legal, would have done just fine here. But I agree to better err on the safe side...
User avatar
linzhiming
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Wolfgang
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: N799DS
Airport: EGLK

Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:14 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby linzhiming » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 pm

dgger wrote:Planning future trips I started to do a bit of research and was browsing through AIPs. Admittedly, I am a bit confused how to determine which country claims authority over airspace. In particular is it not clear to me what makes a nation claim authority over airspace outside its territorial boundaries. I like to think, that I have seen different approaches.

For instance does the U.S. AIP make it clear that overflight over its territorial airspace requires authorization. However, it would appear that passing through U.S. managed FIRs at least 12 NM off shore (and not penetrating the ADIZ) does not. I have done just that and the FIR in question, Miami in my case, did not seem to care.

On the contrary, Cuba takes a different approach. I remember entering into lengthy discussion to route around a squall line through the Havanna FIR - despite being more then 50NM off shore and free of any kind of restricted airspace. While Havanna ultimately was supportive they made it clear, that an exception had been made.

It is even more confusing, when countries have given up control over their airspace. With whom would you request overflight rights? The authority the manages the FIR or the country over whose territory you overfly? I am lost. Can anyone clue me in?


Based upon (limited) experience from IFR cross-country flights in Asia, authorisation is required (if the country whose territory is requiring that) when overflying land and flying within the 12NM water boundary around that land. However, as you say, this often sometimes does not coincide with FIR structure and boundaries. If you fly over water, a permit is normally not required, i.e. if the airway/route goes over water. For instance, although airway A1 from Hong Kong to Vietnam goes through Chinese-managed airspace (Sanya FIR), no permit is required to fly through Sanya FIR (quite important, given that permits through Chinese airspace are difficult to obtain).

It is also important to know whether you might overfly islands that belong to another country. For instance, Indonesia has been recently known to intercept on airway G334 which traverses only the Singapore and Malaysian FIRs (see http://flightservicebureau.org/indonesi ... -airspace/).

Wolfgang
User avatar
wolfvoador
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Wolfgang
Aircraft: DA42NG
Registration: N430PS
Airport: MYNN NASSAU BAHAMAS

Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:44 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby wolfvoador » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:27 pm

Interesting, dear "Singapore-Wolfgang" , I flew recently airline Manila-Singapore, with some contested islands (Spratly) close to flight path, but airline went in safe distance... As for earlier question, from Tenerife to Cabo Verde, Canarias hands you directly to Sal Control, so no Dakar involved. Cuba, I have crossed, landed several times, and know many pilots in the area who have done so, never any incident reported, Havana ATC is very helpful. But no VFR allowed in Cuban airspace, only IFR, except just before landing, "airport in sight". Having landed/overflown a good 25 countries in 4 continents in last 3 years, I always say, no real issue in navigation, meteorology, aircraft performance, only bureaucracy, red tape and harassment in some places (twice threatened seriously with confiscation of aircraft, in Colombia and Morocco). Bahamas-Wolfgang
User avatar
linzhiming
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Wolfgang
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: N799DS
Airport: EGLK

Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:14 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Overflight Rights

Postby linzhiming » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:52 am

wolfvoador wrote:Interesting, dear "Singapore-Wolfgang" , I flew recently airline Manila-Singapore, with some contested islands (Spratly) close to flight path, but airline went in safe distance... As for earlier question, from Tenerife to Cabo Verde, Canarias hands you directly to Sal Control, so no Dakar involved. Cuba, I have crossed, landed several times, and know many pilots in the area who have done so, never any incident reported, Havana ATC is very helpful. But no VFR allowed in Cuban airspace, only IFR, except just before landing, "airport in sight". Having landed/overflown a good 25 countries in 4 continents in last 3 years, I always say, no real issue in navigation, meteorology, aircraft performance, only bureaucracy, red tape and harassment in some places (twice threatened seriously with confiscation of aircraft, in Colombia and Morocco). Bahamas-Wolfgang


Hi, Bahamas-Wolfgang!

Great to have a name cousin in the forum!

However, I need to update my profile from WSSL to EGTF as after 5 1/2 years living, working and flying in Singapore, we have recently relocated to London, including DA40 plane. So I am London-Wolfgang now! :)

I agree with you that the obstacles are bureaucracy and the ever-spreading ground handling disease. I wonder what the authorities actually check when they process a permit application. There was one time when I got upset/impatient with and complained at the long processing delay at one of the CAAs that the CAA person on the other end printed the permit immediately and sent me a WhatsApp image of it. There didn't seem to be a lot of checking done as it was done in 5 minutes so why did they just sit on the application in the first place?

Best regards

London-Wolfgang

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest