Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

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pilotmichael
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Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by pilotmichael » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:19 pm

As someone interested in buying a DA40, one thing that would be helpful to potential and existing owners would be to know:

A. The available options and ballpark costs for WAAS capability
B. The available options and ballpark costs for ADS-B compliance

Both of these above are of particularly concern with the 04-07 G1000 aircraft.

I know both of these topics have been beat to death here and elsewhere. But digging up and sifting through all of the info is a challenge. Plus it changes all the time with new available tech and pricing. I know that pricing will vary depending on many factors but certainly it could be ballparked.

This site has a WIKI and this information would be perfect to have available on that WIKI. In fact, there is an "maintenance and upgrades" section where it could go. Could we summarize the current up to the minute options for 01-03 DA40s and 04-07 DA40s here and then maybe get that added to the WIKI?
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mhoran
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by mhoran » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:33 pm

I co-own a 2007 non-WAAS DA-40 with G1000. I just scheduled ADS-B out installation today, with Lancaster Avionics in PA. I put off the install as long as possible, but our IFR and transponder inspections are due in May and I was hoping to bang everything out at once. As it turns out, everyone was right about a mad rush to comply by 2020, as I wasn't able to get an appointment until June. Out of four shops I called, only one got me a quote. Two never got back to me, and a third told me they were too busy.

The quote for the transponder and installation came in to just under $9k. This seems in line with other quotes I've seen on the forum. One benefit of waiting so long is that shops seem to have the process down by this point, which likely saved on labor.

As to your second question, It's my understanding that there's no way to equip a non-WAAS G1000 with WAAS anymore. Garmin has discontinued the WAAS upgrade units for the G1000 since the NXi came out.

Another downside of the lack of WAAS is the older software for the non-WAAS G1000. While the GTX-345R we're having installed supports ADS-B in, the software available for non-WAAS G1k does not support weather. It does support traffic, however. There's a petition, and some hope, for a software upgrade now that Diamond has changed hands.

We're still very happy with our DA40. The 2007 is a perfect balance of price to features. While WAAS would be nice, we'll get by with ILS approaches and non-precision approaches just fine. Being forced to upgrade our transponder wasn't ideal, but it is what it is.
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Rich
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Rich » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:41 pm

There's kind of matrix depending on what the plane is equipped with already and where you want to go with it. How to present the possible decision tree is a challenge. Michael, would you have a suggestion on presentation format?
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by pilotmichael » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:12 pm

Thanks for the info Matt. Regarding the format, it could be as simple as owners just saying what they have, what they did, and how much it cost.

Using Matt's example above, the entry in the WIKI could state: 2007 non-WAAS G1000, installed GTX-345R for ADS-B compliance. Cost was roughly $9K installed in 2019. Upgrade to WAAS not feasible/available. Watch out for G1000 software upgrade issues in this vintage. No weather support.

Another example might be a 2003 DA40 6-pack that installed a Garmin XXX WAAS Navigator ($20K installed) and a Garmin XXX for ADS-B Compliance ($6K installed).
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Rich
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Rich » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:28 pm

What say you all? Should it be on the Wiki and would new arrivals know to get to it? We might want to also include interesting non-obvious ancillary behaviors of certain behaviors, such as the Appareo Stratus ES/ESG switching between Ground/Air mode at 15 knots GS. And the approach I took 4 years ago I would now do slightly differently, given additional choices available now.

It is true that this info is scattered all around the forum.
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Chris » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am

Seems like a perfectly reasonable use of the Wiki to me. We can update the various threads with links to the data once it has been compiled.
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Tim H » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:54 am

Michael-

I have a 2005 non-WAAS G1000 in which I installed a GTX-345R last summer at a cost of around $9K.

Matt is correct that the weather will not display on the G1000, BUT it will display (via Bluetooth) on my tablet running Garmin Pilot.

As other have said in this and other forums, the ADS-B traffic is way nicer than I would have imaged and I wish I would have done it sooner.

While WAAS would be nice, for the type of flying I do (mostly VFR and light IFR) WAAS adds no real value.

Tim
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Rich » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:58 am

Here's how I would sum up my experience and some relevant notes. How would we best hook this up in the Wiki?

Aircraft (2002 DA40): N40XE, Ser. No. 40.208
As Delivered: GNS 530/430, GTX 327, KAP 140
WAAS: GNS units converted to GNS 530W/430W, 2007, $3,500.00
ADS-B IN: Foreflight/Stratus, 2013?
ADS-B OUT: Replaced GTX 327 with King KT74 (1090ES), 2015, $5,000.00 (530W is WAAS reference)

Result and notes:
KT74 not an easy fit in this DA40. Required angled install.
KT74 required A/S-based squat switch simulator
ADS-B out switches between GND and ALT at ~40 KIAS.
No issues with reliability as of Jan 2019.
These days I would probably opt for GTX 335. (Can switch between WAAS references, e.g.)
If you have a GTX 330, you could presumably save several thousand dollars by upgrading the unit.
Current cost to upgrade 530/430 to WAAS is $3,000.00/unit (plus installation - probably still around $500.00)
FF/Stratus is a much better solution for ADS-B IN for this plane than some sort of panel-mount.
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by blsewardjr » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:36 am

N377DS, 2003 DA40 with GNS530/430 and GTX327. Previous owner was early adaptor. Approximately $10,000 in 2013-14 to upgrade the GNS530 to WAAS (430 is still non-WAAS) and add GDL-88 ADSB Out/In, which provides traffic and weather to the GNS530W. The weather is better on my FF/Stratus, but I think the Garmin software does a better job of pointing out on the GNS530W the traffic that constitute an actual immediate threat. I especially like the audio callouts of direction and distance. If I were to do it now, however, I would have gone with GTX345, which would have added Bluetooth to iPad and ability to change call sign, and a Fight Stream 210 to transfer flight plans. (I could still add the Flight Stream after the fact but my shop quoted $935-1105 for install at the annual (when the seats are already out), plus $950 for the unit, which is more then I'm prepared to spend.

BTW- According the Garmin website, the cost to upgrade a non-WAAS GNS 430 or 530 to WAAS is now $4495. See https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/597181
Bernie Seward, IR, AGI
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Pascal » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:37 am

I agree with Rich. My steam gauge DA20-C1 will get a Garmin GTX 335 in one year and I'll use a Foreflight Scout for ADSB-IN and AHRS on my iPad.

As a bonus, I will use the Garmin transponder to provide a WAAS gps signal to a Garmin G5.
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