G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

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michael.g.miller
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by michael.g.miller »

pietromarx wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:51 pm Diamond's service department is great at getting us replacement parts and keeping the original equipment working. Their services end when it comes to digital upgrades.

Cirrus and many other manufacturers have evolved into a more modern approach.
I came from an SR22 to a DA42. To set the record straight, Cirrus has largely taken the same approach that Diamond has with avionics upgrades. On a G1000 equipped SR22, you are locked into the pre-existing avionics. There may be some software upgrades you can do, but an NXi upgrade is not supported on any Cirrus model.

On an older non-G1000 Cirrus, you can upgrade the avionics, but this is because the avionics are not in the TCDS. The problem that G1000 owners are facing is that the avionics are enshrined in the aircraft by regulation. In the case of *any* G1000 equipped aircraft, you need the manufacturer's buy-in to upgrade the avionics. Diamond is not alone in lacking the appetite to pursue these upgrades.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by CBeak »

That’s interesting. Reading this forum, we’ve almost been led to believe Cirrus is bending over backward to provide upgrades.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by michael.g.miller »

CBeak wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:08 am That’s interesting. Reading this forum, we’ve almost been led to believe Cirrus is bending over backward to provide upgrades.
To a degree, yes. I believe Cirrus will supply software upgrades to the pre-existing hardware. For example, if you have a G1000 equipped Cirrus, I think you can upgrade to the latest G1000 software without much hassle. It's my understanding that Diamond does not issue software updates to some legacy aircraft. This might be due to Transport Canada.

However, I know for sure that you can *not*, at present, upgrade the physical hardware to NXi. I know some other manufacturers allow this, but Cirrus doesn't. And let's be real, Cirrus and Diamond are the only meaningful companies in the piston space.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by pietromarx »

michael.g.miller wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:15 am
CBeak wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:08 am That’s interesting. Reading this forum, we’ve almost been led to believe Cirrus is bending over backward to provide upgrades.
To a degree, yes. I believe Cirrus will supply software upgrades to the pre-existing hardware. For example, if you have a G1000 equipped Cirrus, I think you can upgrade to the latest G1000 software without much hassle. It's my understanding that Diamond does not issue software updates to some legacy aircraft. This might be due to Transport Canada.

However, I know for sure that you can *not*, at present, upgrade the physical hardware to NXi. I know some other manufacturers allow this, but Cirrus doesn't. And let's be real, Cirrus and Diamond are the only meaningful companies in the piston space.
I think it is really a matter of tone and culture more than anything else. Diamond has been regrettably very quiet and uncommunicative about their software and digital equipment strategy. On these boards, for example, I have never seen a posting from someone in the company. Similarly, the software update process is opaque at best. Individuals in this community took it upon themselves to push Diamond to say something -- anything -- at their own expense and time. Diamond then didn't communicate about delays or changes, again leaving it to individuals (on this thread and elsewhere) to speak on behalf of the company.

It is very odd to my experience. I was the CTO for a company which did a very popular online product (won't mention which one) that did a multimillion person beta test and then went on to sell millions of subscriptions. Our community was (and is) everything. The community on these boards is very invested and supportive of Diamond, yet the company remains ... quiet.

Garmin, by the way, participates on its community boards even for devices and services which cost only 1/10,000th of an airplane.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by pietromarx »

michael.g.miller wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:50 am
pietromarx wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:51 pm Diamond's service department is great at getting us replacement parts and keeping the original equipment working. Their services end when it comes to digital upgrades.

Cirrus and many other manufacturers have evolved into a more modern approach.
I came from an SR22 to a DA42. To set the record straight, Cirrus has largely taken the same approach that Diamond has with avionics upgrades. On a G1000 equipped SR22, you are locked into the pre-existing avionics. There may be some software upgrades you can do, but an NXi upgrade is not supported on any Cirrus model.

On an older non-G1000 Cirrus, you can upgrade the avionics, but this is because the avionics are not in the TCDS. The problem that G1000 owners are facing is that the avionics are enshrined in the aircraft by regulation. In the case of *any* G1000 equipped aircraft, you need the manufacturer's buy-in to upgrade the avionics. Diamond is not alone in lacking the appetite to pursue these upgrades.
Actually, in the case of the original DA-40-180 G1000 the STC was owned by Garmin, not Diamond. It was the first installation and the only one to my knowledge where the STC was held by Garmin.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Charles K »

And the great thing about the older DA40 180 like my 2004 is that legally we can remove and replace the g1000 as it is installed under STC and is not a part of the aircraft type certificate.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by p3dave »

Charles K wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:19 pm And the great thing about the older DA40 180 like my 2004 is that legally we can remove and replace the g1000 as it is installed under STC and is not a part of the aircraft type certificate.
Charles, would you consider changing out the G1000 in your 2004? I would think an STC to do that would be required unless a field approval is sought which could be time consuming. What would you change it too?
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dant »

It is very odd to my experience. I was the CTO for a company which did a very popular online product (won't mention which one) that did a multimillion person beta test and then went on to sell millions of subscriptions. Our community was (and is) everything.
Well, one thing that the various giant subscription game communities have demonstrated is that interacting and maintaining a community is a skill that is very distinct from developing a game. Plenty of companies have tried and failed on that front. I suspect it's the same with building airplanes. Which is not to say they shouldn't be trying harder...
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by ememic99 »

michael.g.miller wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:15 am
CBeak wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:08 am That’s interesting. Reading this forum, we’ve almost been led to believe Cirrus is bending over backward to provide upgrades.
This might be due to Transport Canada.
No. DAI Canada is owner only of DA62 type certificate (and maybe Lycoming DA40 - I’m not sure), so Transport Canada is involved only in DA62 cases which are not the problem because all aircrafts can be easily upgraded to match latest production models. The rest is with DAI Austria which means EASA is primary certification body and I’m not aware of any problems in that area.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Charles K »

Possibly depending on lack of any further software updates or repair availability for the LRUs, etc. I could install anything already approved for the non g1000 DA40. If you look at all documentation for my era DA40 it is a steam Guage DA40 with g1000 under stc. Removing the g1000 makes it back to a Steam Guage version.

Probability is low but at least the option exists. If that last promised software update comes out and the units can still be repaired or exchanged (eg gia63 cannot be repaired but could be replaced w gia64) then I’d stick with my g1000 which overall is very good. If I keep plane much longer might be worth getting her to the factory for a gfc700 replacement of the KAP140. There is more than enough value in my plane as an original owner to justify the cost.
p3dave wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:19 pm
Charles K wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:19 pm And the great thing about the older DA40 180 like my 2004 is that legally we can remove and replace the g1000 as it is installed under STC and is not a part of the aircraft type certificate.
Charles, would you consider changing out the G1000 in your 2004? I would think an STC to do that would be required unless a field approval is sought which could be time consuming. What would you change it too?
Charles
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N5WU - 2004 G1000 DA40 40.400, GTX345R ADS-B, WAAS Upgraded in 2021 via Diamond Upgrade Program
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