G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

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mhoran
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by mhoran »

CFIDave wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:07 pm Furthermore as has been pointed out elsewhere, NXI Phase I is a dead-end system with no more software updates.
I just want to point out that we all seem to be talking past each other on this thread. Yes, for *Diamond* airplanes, phase I is a dead-end. But as has been pointed out numerous times, this is due to a conscious decision by Diamond, not Garmin. And this is the root of my frustration with this entire situation. While I do believe Garmin is partly to blame for the situation we are in today, Diamond also seems to have some responsibility. It does seem that there is some newer software available for phase I that Diamond has chosen not to certify.

This is a separate issue from the discontinued manufacture of the GIA-63W, which leaves those of us with legacy or phase I systems with an uncertain future. However, this is independent from the software itself, which seemingly *is* backwards compatible with the GIA-63W, but is not certified for our airframes. This is the root of my personal frustration, because it seems that we need both Diamond *and* Garmin to cooperate on a future support path for legacy G1000 airplanes, and we've seen little evidence so far that this will happen.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by CFIDave »

As far as I know, NXi Phase I hardware is also a software dead-end for other aircraft manufactures like Cessna (Nav III for C172/C182/C206) and Beechcraft (G36/G58). If Phase I owners want to upgrade their software, then they need to migrate to Phase II hardware (which for Diamond will also support the upcoming "free" Phase III software).

It makes little business sense for Diamond/Garmin to invest in software updates for older NXi Phase I hardware, especially since it apparently takes years of effort to do all of the testing required to get *any* software updates approved by Transport Canada. If you want upgraded NXi software, you'll need to upgrade the hardware. Unfortunately there's no business model where owners can pay to fund the development (and certification!) of software for older avionics.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by ememic99 »

dmloftus wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:00 pm
ememic99 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:11 pm
dmloftus wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:48 am I would expect when that day is near, Garmin and Diamond will be forced to offer the NXi display upgrade path to existing G1000 customers. Maybe if enough of us point out that inevitability to Diamond, they may accelerate a solution. In the meantime, I’ll cross my fingers that I don’t lose another display.
No, they will not be forced because there’s no mechanism that can push them to do that. We’ve been pointing out this for 3-4 years both to Diamond and Garmin without any success.

Regarding the interoperability of the components (different LRUs) it exist only in theory. For putting them in function, new software is needed and that’s major obstacle.
It’s not theory, Garmin is shipping NXi displays today to upgrade customers on other platforms with the same configuration: GIA63W’s and balance of our same LRU’s. The software is there, it is built with backward compatibility. The config module for each platform informs the OFP which code to run for which LRU’s are present. Unfortunately in our particular case, Diamond needs to sign off.
If what you claim is true then DA42 TDI with GIA63W (regardless the type of autopilot) would out of the box support NXi upgrade, just with Diamond’s sign off. I strongly believe that’s not like that.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by chili4way »

Actually, it is. That's yet another frustration. The GIA-64 is a very *small* upgrade. The challenges here are simple: abandonment without consultation or consideration.
@pietromarx - show me the Cirrus Perspective to Perspective+ upgrade offering (or even a Cirrus "Phase 1" upgrade equivalent where just the Perspective GDUs are upgraded) and I'll agree with your point about 'Diamond abandonment'.
It was a choice not to pursue a business model which supported continuing service. We pay for parts, so why not software?)
Passive voice... Whose choice? If you think this is Diamond, I disagree. If you mean Garmin, then I sadly agree. Garmin's SW development is solely in support of additional hardware sales. We challenged this early in our initial conversations with Diamond & Garmin.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Boatguy »

Why are you guys thrashing on this issue? The facts are clear. Diamond will only certify avionics configurations for new airplanes. Period. End of story. If your airplane can be reconfigured to a configuration that matches what was at one time a new airplane, there is software to run that hardware. If not, then you'll need to wait until some third party issues an STC for their product. Write Garmin, Dynon, Honeywell, Avidyne, whomever. But it's not going to happen with Diamond so get over it.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by chili4way »

Boatguy wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:59 am Diamond will only certify avionics configurations for new airplanes. Period. End of story. .... it's not going to happen with Diamond so get over it.
Do Cirrus or other manufacturers do this (i.e. develop and certify integrated avionics configurations for planes that are no longer in production)? I don't think this issue is specific to Diamond, and many of the comments in this thread suggest this is solely a "Diamond" problem that does not exist elsewhere. It's an industry issue, with Garmin playing a key role in its creation. Hopefully, they will choose be part of the resolution. If not, as you point out, the solution can only come via a third-party STC.
Boatguy wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:59 amyou'll need to wait until some third party issues an STC for their product. Write Garmin, Dynon, Honeywell, Avidyne, whomever.
I completely agree with you here. The bottleneck is owners' willingness to pay (vs. willingness to complain). In many cases, what owners' have is good enough for now. This is especially true as long as they (the market) perceive that the age of the composite airframe is a bigger factor in used aircraft pricing than the age of the overhauled avionics. Under the present circumstances, the incremental modular upgrades available to 'steam gauge' aircraft (which includes certain glass panel models, like the initial Avidyne Cirrus aircraft) generally provide a much larger step in functionality at an acceptable price for the hardware and installation.
Boatguy wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:59 amWhy are you guys thrashing on this issue?
To better understand the problem, how to solve it, who can solve it, and what (or who) is stopping them from doing so. At least that's me.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by jast »

I think the best future avionics will provide a generic display overlay and data stream interface via wifi to an iPad or other wifi devices. The interface itself needs to be certified and sandboxed so that it can not overload the host system. Basically think „Airplay for planes“. That would make avionics future proof for a much longer time and would allow the community to maintain support for old aircrafts.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Chris »

I'm trying to get my head around why Garmin would hold back development of NXi upgrades for Diamond aircraft. They make a big deal of upgrade availability for other models, going as far as to say it's 'a virtual “plug-and-play” swapout for your current displays'. Of course that is an over-simplification, and I'm sure that a non-trivial amount of support from the manufacturer is required to make upgrades available for specific models. But I don't see any reason that Garmin would try to get in the way of such an upgrade path. What would be their motivation to do so when upgrades provide them a means to sell new components?

If a "lowly" Cessna 172 can upgrade from G1000 to NXi, why not a DA40-XL? Even a "dead-end Phase I" upgrade provides access to a better UX for the current set of features as well as a perception that customers haven't been entirely abandoned. Whether that is worth $35k+ ... the market will decide.

On the flip side, I can think of several reasons why Diamond would drag their feet on upgrading old models: lack of staffing or technical expertise to support more configurations, no guaranteed monetary positive return on the investment required to make the upgrades available, risk of introducing new problems into functional aircraft, peception that it may cannibalize sales of new aircraft, and a possibly-poor relationship with TC resulting in higher hurdles to getting approvals.

Is the blame being assigned to Garmin due to them not making upgrades profitable for the manufactuers? I could certainly see that as being a factor. Diamond has to invest some resources into making upgrades available, and I doubt Garmin is willing to subsidize those costs. So the costs would either need to be recaptured by increasing the upgrade pricing (where there is perhaps not much wiggle room) or through the harder-to-measure increase in customer goodwill/loyalty, which Diamond has historically valued somewhere close to zero.

It will be interesting to watch what Cirrus does here since they have a much larger installed base who would benefit from these types of upgrades. I don't see Diamond taking the lead here, but they may follow if Cirrus steps up like Textron has. Meanwhile, it seems like the best we can do is let Diamond know that there is some demand by contacting them directly as suggested by Paul above.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by VickersPilot »

It is interesting to observe the warmth that exists between TBM owners and Daher. They act like a team that respect one another and often TBM owners are brand loyal when upgrading. Whilst I can’t see the value in their pricing vs other options, this good relationship is something that might make me upgrade.

Daher make all upgrades available to customers where technically realistic.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by pietromarx »

Chris - I think you're right. The basic issue is one of the difference in mindset between traditional equipment manufacturers and more contemporary software / hardware providers. The former sell products with some services, the latter sell services that come with products. Having worked for GE, Qualcomm, Apple, and several very well-known software providers, the gulf between the two cultures is vast. Apps vs. turbines. Apps are upgraded, turbines are replaced.

Diamond's service department is great at getting us replacement parts and keeping the original equipment working. Their services end when it comes to digital upgrades.

Cirrus and many other manufacturers have evolved into a more modern approach.

If you can get an upgrade for your Cessna, King Air, etc. for NXi to run on a GIA-63W and you can't with the same equipment on a Diamond, then ... well, one wonders. Heck, it has been at least five years since we had the same software update as every other G1000 installation got.

I agree with you that Garmin would likely love to sell us more products, upgrades, etc. They always have. Further., they are getting more and more into delivering their products as services. Having watched Garmin since Gary and Min got together, I have seen their business evolve. Their approach to avionics took the entire industry within a decade ... pretty amazing. Even where their products have been sub-par, Garmin has been pretty good at keeping pace with their competitors and delivering upgrades and new features for products years after they sold the last one.

Diamond, as many people have noted, is into selling complete airplanes to us. Therefore, they have an interest in running out the clock and having us replace our airplane for a new one. Further, we individual owner-pilots may not be thrilled to know that we're probably less important to Diamond overall than fleet sales and government purchases, both of which fit better into their model.

I will just say that the airplane remains a joy to fly. The avionics work. The world outside the canopy is more fun to watch than a moving map on a panel. I am resigned to it remaining as it is. It may be hard to believe, but the G1000 remains a better UX than what you'll find in a 787 or A350 cockpit. For anything more there is always Foreflight and Garmin Pilot, both of which beat the pants off of any integrated anything.
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