Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

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Rich
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by Rich »

pietromarx wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:00 am In thinking on this for the last few days, I cannot see why you can't put in any instrumentation you want. The engine is a nice 1941 Lycoming that can be monitored by any monitoring system. The flight instruments are generic. There are no airframe-specific sensors or systems other than the autopilot.

As noted, this situation only applies to the DA-40-180. It means that we can have your setup. There is a small, but non-zero, chance that someone might take the lightest weight, too. Woot!
Various products available for other aircraft are not currently so for Diamonds, such as Dynon. So it's far from "anything you want".

While sensors are not airframe-specific, the sensors are often display-specific/proprietary. A solvable issue, I presume, but it is an additional thing to deal with. If nothing else they need to be rewired. A quick list:

2 (or 4) fuel level sensors (note the challenge of the 50-gallon birds)
2 low fuel level switches
1 fuel pressure sensor
1 low fuel pressure switch
1 fuel flow sensor
1 oil pressure sensor
1 low oil pressure switch
1 pitot current sensor
1 alternator current sensor
1 alternator low voltage sensor

It's likely that the existing EGT and CHT thermocouples will work with any system, as well as the RPM pickup on the mag.

The moral is to do all your research so you know how to address all the facets of replacement.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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pietromarx
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by pietromarx »

Rich wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:12 pm
pietromarx wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:00 am In thinking on this for the last few days, I cannot see why you can't put in any instrumentation you want. The engine is a nice 1941 Lycoming that can be monitored by any monitoring system. The flight instruments are generic. There are no airframe-specific sensors or systems other than the autopilot.

As noted, this situation only applies to the DA-40-180. It means that we can have your setup. There is a small, but non-zero, chance that someone might take the lightest weight, too. Woot!
Various products available for other aircraft are not currently so for Diamonds, such as Dynon. So it's far from "anything you want".

While sensors are not airframe-specific, the sensors are often display-specific/proprietary. A solvable issue, I presume, but it is an additional thing to deal with. If nothing else they need to be rewired. A quick list:

2 (or 4) fuel level sensors (note the challenge of the 50-gallon birds)
2 low fuel level switches
1 fuel pressure sensor
1 low fuel pressure switch
1 fuel flow sensor
1 oil pressure sensor
1 low oil pressure switch
1 pitot current sensor
1 alternator current sensor
1 alternator low voltage sensor

It's likely that the existing EGT and CHT thermocouples will work with any system, as well as the RPM pickup on the mag.

The moral is to do all your research so you know how to address all the facets of replacement.

Please excuse my overstatement about this highly regulated environment.

If I am not mistaken, though, your airplane and the other DA-40-180s with and without G1000s all have these in various forms.
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Rich
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by Rich »

pietromarx wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:36 am
Rich wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:12 pm Various products available for other aircraft are not currently so for Diamonds, such as Dynon. So it's far from "anything you want".

While sensors are not airframe-specific, the sensors are often display-specific/proprietary. A solvable issue, I presume, but it is an additional thing to deal with. If nothing else they need to be rewired. A quick list:

2 (or 4) fuel level sensors (note the challenge of the 50-gallon birds)
2 low fuel level switches
1 fuel pressure sensor
1 low fuel pressure switch
1 fuel flow sensor
1 oil pressure sensor
1 low oil pressure switch
1 pitot current sensor
1 alternator current sensor
1 alternator low voltage sensor

It's likely that the existing EGT and CHT thermocouples will work with any system, as well as the RPM pickup on the mag.

The moral is to do all your research so you know how to address all the facets of replacement.

Please excuse my overstatement about this highly regulated environment.

If I am not mistaken, though, your airplane and the other DA-40-180s with and without G1000s all have these in various forms.
True enough, but the effect for us round-gauge folks that do not have the heavily integrated system is different. Navigation/communication, flight gauges and monitoring are all independent subsystems. Roughly half of these gizmos might need replacement IF I were to replace the VM1000. (I have been contemplating doing this, but the only benefits would be to be able to record engine parameters for later replay and getting a system still in production.)

The others (and a couple not listed) feed a separate annunciator panel independent of everything else. So if I wanted to somehow squeeze in, say a G3X, I need not replace any of the list above.

These things are always a much bigger job than you would think.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by mhoran »

JPI EGT probes (and I'd presume CHT probes) aren't compatible with the G1000, and I'd suspect the opposite is true. A mechanic tried to cheap out on me and replaced a failed Garmin probe with a JPI probe and it didn't work. I brought it to a Diamond shop and they explained that the probes are resistance based. So while you *might* be able to get them to work with another system, but would that fly in a certified airplane? I guess an alternative could be offered that is compatible, but Rich makes a great point about potentially having to replace all these sensors (in addition to the avionics and autopilot). Sounds expensive.
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Rich
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by Rich »

BTW, we round-gauge guys can readily replace stuff but also are constrained by whether the DA40 shows up on a given AML. In the case of the '02s onward, there is also constraint on panel space.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by pietromarx »

mhoran wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:31 pm JPI EGT probes (and I'd presume CHT probes) aren't compatible with the G1000, and I'd suspect the opposite is true. A mechanic tried to cheap out on me and replaced a failed Garmin probe with a JPI probe and it didn't work. I brought it to a Diamond shop and they explained that the probes are resistance based. So while you *might* be able to get them to work with another system, but would that fly in a certified airplane? I guess an alternative could be offered that is compatible, but Rich makes a great point about potentially having to replace all these sensors (in addition to the avionics and autopilot). Sounds expensive.
By removing the G1000 you are now back in the non-integrated mode. That means that you get to pick and choose your components -- based upon what is certified and offered for use in a DA-40-180.

Yes, it is a big job. However, it appears to be possible, which is the point of this thread whose title starts with the word "can". Given the aging and continued limiting of options with the G1000 as originally installed in the DA-40-180 from 2004 to 2019, this is something rather good.

I guess you can say the following: the airplane is just an economic asset whose value is threatened by obsolescent avionics. There is nothing here from a regulatory point of view that seems insurmountable (and I speak from a lot of experience), leaving the choice between whether the airplane is worth salvaging by replacing a single integrated STC system with a set of other STC'd components.

Until someone does it, this all speculation.
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Re: Can the G1000 be removed and replaced with something else?

Post by Charles K »

Just a comment on the AFM and AMM comments earlier. My 2004 DA40-180 G1000 (installed by STC) has an AFM and AMM and IPC that is the same as the steam gauge DA40. There are supplemental documents I must carry because of the G1000 being installed. My G1000 parts list is in the STC and nowhere to be found in the IPC or AMM for my plane. This all further supports that it can be removed. I will say I am a much happier camper with my WAAS upgrade I had done early this year!
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