G1000 NXi Phase III

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CFIDave
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by CFIDave »

nworthin wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:15 pmI'm a bit confused by the chart you posted. Since I haven't received my DA62 yet (next month promised) and I'm not entirely sure what Phase II does include, do the X's represent features already in Phase II and "Avail" is what's coming in Phase III? Or do the X's mean "no feature for you..."?
In the first page, original post in this thread, the chart entries with X's represent features that are "coming next year" in NXi Phase III software. "Avail" represents features are are already/currently available with NXi Phase II. For example, my DA62 (upgraded to NXi Phase II) already has the "video splash screen at startup" shown as "Avail."
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Rick
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Rick »

Colin wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:06 pmI would imagine that you would need a bunch of information from Diamond, which they are probably unwilling to part with (they will cite liability concerns, if patterns follow). Just to move my plane from a KAP140 DA42 to a GFC700 DA42 required major work in the under-luggage-area section, since the LRUs needed a different box (possibly primarily for ventilation if I recall the conversation in the factory correctly). So you have a weight and balance change and, possibly, some structural work for the new box.

You are replacing all of the engine instrumentation. A bunch of stuff needs to change (x-speeds were all different for my change, even though they shouldn't be). I presume that to make that change with newly built planes meant a bunch of testing with the new configuration and, obviously, a bunch of new manual pages. So you'd have to get those from Diamond as well.

(And, as far as 337 is concerned, there was a Twin Navion that was built with just an STC. It flew and everything and they were preparing to start selling them and the local FSDO finally came to their senses and said, "What just a second here..." So they couldn't get any additional approvals. But that was certainly more than major and it *did* get approved at first.)
Assuming you already have the GFC700, the NXi upgrade seems less complicated than upgrading the autopilot from the KAP140 to the GFC700. The NXi G1000 screens are drop-in replacements, reusing the same wiring and mounting (according to Garmin). And aren't avionics shops today already performing this upgrade for Cessnas and TBMs and such? I know those are done via STC, but as far as knowing what needs to be done, they should already have that knowledge.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by ememic99 »

Chris wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:23 am Add $40k+ for a GFC700 if not already equipped with one.
Unfortunately, it's more like in $100k ballpark, at least for DA42.
I would be very surprised if Diamond issues another G1000 update that is compatible with the KAP140 autopilot, but I have no knowledge either way.
Luckily, GDU v 15 will include KAP140. At least that's info Diamond shared when development started.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by ememic99 »

Rick wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:45 pm Assuming you already have the GFC700, the NXi upgrade seems less complicated than upgrading the autopilot from the KAP140 to the GFC700. The NXi G1000 screens are drop-in replacements, reusing the same wiring and mounting (according to Garmin). And aren't avionics shops today already performing this upgrade for Cessnas and TBMs and such? I know those are done via STC, but as far as knowing what needs to be done, they should already have that knowledge.
You are right that's less complicated and wiring should be the same. However, there's issue of software which has to be developed and certified (newer versions of GDU don't support CD engines). In addition, with replacing screens you would be bound to NXi Phase 1 which already has been orphaned. For Phase 2/3 you need GIA64, GEA71B (adapted to CD engines) and GMA1360. And of course, software probably needs some porting to support CD engines. And certification. With EASA and FAA.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Chris »

ememic99 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:47 pm
Chris wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:23 am Add $40k+ for a GFC700 if not already equipped with one.
Unfortunately, it's more like in $100k ballpark, at least for DA42.
I missed the labor costs with the number above, but I'm thinking it should still be closer to $75k since the 2020 upgrade list from Diamond specifies $44k for parts (for a DA42) plus 250 hours of labor. Unless they're charging over $200/hour for labor or have doubled the parts pricing since then.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Diamond_Dan »

ememic99 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:38 pm
Diamond_Dan wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:38 pm I believe I asked before but I will be skeptical until I see it - will GDU Version 15 support the KAP? It would be re-assuring to get a recent confirmation.
Yes, GDU v 15 will support KAP140. In addition, it will support different versions of GIA63W (not only -01). It will not support GIA63.
Thank you for the reassurance. Fortunately, my former partner upgraded the plane to WAAS.
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by VickersPilot »

What is the current availability and price of WAAS upgrades?
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Rick »

ememic99 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:56 pm
Rick wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:45 pmAssuming you already have the GFC700, the NXi upgrade seems less complicated than upgrading the autopilot from the KAP140 to the GFC700. The NXi G1000 screens are drop-in replacements, reusing the same wiring and mounting (according to Garmin). And aren't avionics shops today already performing this upgrade for Cessnas and TBMs and such? I know those are done via STC, but as far as knowing what needs to be done, they should already have that knowledge.
You are right that's less complicated and wiring should be the same. However, there's issue of software which has to be developed and certified (newer versions of GDU don't support CD engines). In addition, with replacing screens you would be bound to NXi Phase 1 which already has been orphaned. For Phase 2/3 you need GIA64, GEA71B (adapted to CD engines) and GMA1360. And of course, software probably needs some porting to support CD engines. And certification. With EASA and FAA.
I was originally only thinking about the Lycoming DA40's, but I guess my question applies equally to all the engine variants. Or at least the ones that Diamond has already released NXi software for. Granted, we would immediately be back in the same boat we are now - stuck at some phase/version for years (or forever!), but we might be 15 years ahead of where we are now, with faster hardware, etc. It's not ideal, but possibly a path forward where there currently seems to be NO PATH anywhere! Just speculating...
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by chili4way »

Chris, you're also missing the STC cost, i.e. the development, documentation (operation & installation) & certification costs divided by the number of participating owners. URBE's €10K STC charge (for their much simpler GIA63-63W WAAS upgrade) is probably the most the market would bear. The question is whether or not enough owners would sign up to fund the NRE costs.

Most owners (who haven't done what Collin has done) will need to pay for the KAP140 removal and GFC700 installation, which probably includes the labor-intensive HIRF box installation so the avionics installation matches the DA42-NG/VI.

I think Emir's $100K price point is close enough to assess the demand & business opportunity. Price increases likely suggest it may be on the low side. How many owners would invest $100K+ into an airplane with a market value in the $335K-$415K that results in an airplane with the avionics capability of a plane that would otherwise cost upwards of $800K?
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Re: G1000 NXi Phase III

Post by Chris »

chili4way wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pm Chris, you're also missing the STC cost
I'm just quoting published numbers for things which are already advertised as available by Diamond. I'm not suggesting that this price is applicable to airframes for which STCs aren't already available. This part of the thread started as a dicussion about upgrading a Lycoming DA40, which is already certified for both GFC700 and NXi.
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