Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
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- Oshkosh99
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Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
Hello,
we are flying a N-reg DA42NG in Europe. We now have around 1560 engine hours, so our engines would be up for overhaul / replacement in around 240hrs.
With Diamonds recent almost DOUBLING of "overhaul" prices at TBO (from EUR 24.500,- to EUR 47.500,- per engine, stating a now mandatory "replacement" instead of an "overhaul") the question arises how mandatory that TBO is? Could we fly past TBO "on condition"? We are not using the plane for compensation or hire....
We are being told by our shared ownership company that TBO is mandatory for the DA42NG, even under FAA rules.
Any opinions?
Thanks
we are flying a N-reg DA42NG in Europe. We now have around 1560 engine hours, so our engines would be up for overhaul / replacement in around 240hrs.
With Diamonds recent almost DOUBLING of "overhaul" prices at TBO (from EUR 24.500,- to EUR 47.500,- per engine, stating a now mandatory "replacement" instead of an "overhaul") the question arises how mandatory that TBO is? Could we fly past TBO "on condition"? We are not using the plane for compensation or hire....
We are being told by our shared ownership company that TBO is mandatory for the DA42NG, even under FAA rules.
Any opinions?
Thanks
- CFIDave
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
This question has been answered multiple times previously.
If flying a US N-registered aircraft under Part 91 (e.g., not Part 135 air taxi), TBO is only a manufacturer-recommended limit. Owner/operators are free to put as many hours on their engines as they want without overhaul. Of course you and your mechanic/tech will need to carefully monitor items such as whether the engine is "making metal," oil consumption, cylinder compression, and how well the engine continues to operate.
Particularly if Austro is no longer offering engine overhauls, there's no need to replace an engine prematurely at 1800 hours if it's running well.
If flying a US N-registered aircraft under Part 91 (e.g., not Part 135 air taxi), TBO is only a manufacturer-recommended limit. Owner/operators are free to put as many hours on their engines as they want without overhaul. Of course you and your mechanic/tech will need to carefully monitor items such as whether the engine is "making metal," oil consumption, cylinder compression, and how well the engine continues to operate.
Particularly if Austro is no longer offering engine overhauls, there's no need to replace an engine prematurely at 1800 hours if it's running well.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Oshkosh99
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
Dave,
thanks. I searched the Austro engine section for TBO but could not find anything, probably did not look or search right....
I'll have to ask our shared ownership company for further clarification. One argument so far was that the FAA certification is based on the EASA certification which seem to be more strict on this.
However they also thought we need a mandatory 100h inspection between annuals, but after I mwntioned the clarification from the FAA from October 2014 they agreed that we do not necessarily need a 100h inspection between annuals (obviously we should do oilchanges etc. but not necessarily the full 100h inspection)
https://flymall.org/blog/2019/07/100-ho ... pretation/
Anyway thanks and maybe see you again sometime at NC26....
Joe W.
thanks. I searched the Austro engine section for TBO but could not find anything, probably did not look or search right....
I'll have to ask our shared ownership company for further clarification. One argument so far was that the FAA certification is based on the EASA certification which seem to be more strict on this.
However they also thought we need a mandatory 100h inspection between annuals, but after I mwntioned the clarification from the FAA from October 2014 they agreed that we do not necessarily need a 100h inspection between annuals (obviously we should do oilchanges etc. but not necessarily the full 100h inspection)
https://flymall.org/blog/2019/07/100-ho ... pretation/
Anyway thanks and maybe see you again sometime at NC26....
Joe W.
- Ed McDonald
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
Throughout my aircraft love affair and ownership, overhauling things that were working perfectly well has caused more headaches, problems and costs than I care to remember.
An excellent book about this is Mike Busch’s “Maintenance Manifesto” https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detai ... pr=2676102.
In this day and age of engine monitors, big data, oil analysis and other means to monitor the health of aircraft and components the notion of taking a perfectly usable engine off an aircraft and overhaul it is completely bonkers.
I recall a CFM56 engine on an A320 going to 40000 hours before being pulled off a wing - the engine was still within parameters, despite the TBO being 4000 hours.
Unless it is safety critical and is showing signs of degradation, watch it closely and keep using it.
Throughout my aircraft love affair and ownership, overhauling things that were working perfectly well has caused more headaches, problems and costs than I care to remember.
An excellent book about this is Mike Busch’s “Maintenance Manifesto” https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detai ... pr=2676102.
In this day and age of engine monitors, big data, oil analysis and other means to monitor the health of aircraft and components the notion of taking a perfectly usable engine off an aircraft and overhaul it is completely bonkers.
I recall a CFM56 engine on an A320 going to 40000 hours before being pulled off a wing - the engine was still within parameters, despite the TBO being 4000 hours.
Unless it is safety critical and is showing signs of degradation, watch it closely and keep using it.
- Oshkosh99
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
Ed,
thanks! I've been following Mike Busch for I think more than 20 years. I recall an analysis he made of NTSB reports on forced landings due to engine failures, and if I recall right 50% of those where either new engines max 20hrs old, or engines having had maintanance within the previous 5 hrs. I co-owned a C172XPII back then in Minneapolis ('98 to 2001), and when that came out of annual the passenger safety belt was put in the wrong way around and the engine was running rough so it went back into the shop (and I missed what turned out to have been the last opportunity to fly into Meigs field..)
So what you say is exactly my stance, but I am exploring the legality for this to apply to a N-reg DA42 operated by a shared ownership program in Europe, hence my questions.
And back to Mike Busch, unfortunately his Savvy aviation is not (yet) supporting AE300 engines, at least not when I last asked about 1 or 2 years ago...
Thanks
Joe W.
thanks! I've been following Mike Busch for I think more than 20 years. I recall an analysis he made of NTSB reports on forced landings due to engine failures, and if I recall right 50% of those where either new engines max 20hrs old, or engines having had maintanance within the previous 5 hrs. I co-owned a C172XPII back then in Minneapolis ('98 to 2001), and when that came out of annual the passenger safety belt was put in the wrong way around and the engine was running rough so it went back into the shop (and I missed what turned out to have been the last opportunity to fly into Meigs field..)
So what you say is exactly my stance, but I am exploring the legality for this to apply to a N-reg DA42 operated by a shared ownership program in Europe, hence my questions.
And back to Mike Busch, unfortunately his Savvy aviation is not (yet) supporting AE300 engines, at least not when I last asked about 1 or 2 years ago...
Thanks
Joe W.
- Donkadillapig
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
Joe, I signed up for (or rather they took me on) with Savvy Mx mid last year (21). They seemed happy with the AE300 in my '21 40NG.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
- Boatguy
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
What services are they providing?Donkadillapig wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:11 pm Joe, I signed up for (or rather they took me on) with Savvy Mx mid last year (21). They seemed happy with the AE300 in my '21 40NG.
Hope this helps.
- Donkadillapig
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
It's early days Russ, so far it has only really been customer advocacy and oversight on service issues. Inconsequential for some, huge for this rookie owner.
They've clarified some MSB's (where local A&Ps could not) during the whole high pressure fuel pump bunfight.
Admittedly, what they haven't (yet) had to do is any detailed engine analysis or the like specific to the AE300.
I am in for my annual at the end of the month and it will be interesting to see how they perform during that.
Things are a little better now. However in the beginning of my ownership tenure, I was, or at least I felt as such, out on my own. Savvy's support seemed to fit at the time.
They've clarified some MSB's (where local A&Ps could not) during the whole high pressure fuel pump bunfight.
Admittedly, what they haven't (yet) had to do is any detailed engine analysis or the like specific to the AE300.
I am in for my annual at the end of the month and it will be interesting to see how they perform during that.
Things are a little better now. However in the beginning of my ownership tenure, I was, or at least I felt as such, out on my own. Savvy's support seemed to fit at the time.
- Donkadillapig
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
I do seem to remember now that I asked specifically about our type of engine when researching their support and the had replied that they did have someone on staff that knew the block.
- Boatguy
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Re: Is AE300 TBO mandatory?
I think the guy they have "on staff" is the IA at Absolute Aero in Hayward, CA, who normally services my plane and where it is currently for the annual.Donkadillapig wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:16 pm I do seem to remember now that I asked specifically about our type of engine when researching their support and the had replied that they did have someone on staff that knew the block.