No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

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ememic99
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by ememic99 »

chili4way wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:02 pm finding owners to commit sufficiently (show up with a check in hand and not just "be interested")
Sometimes even that is not enough. Two years ago I found 10 DA42 TDI owners ready to pay $150k upfront for NXi STC development and nothing happened.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by chili4way »

Emir, I know. It was one of the times I went down that path. Hordes not handfuls, and they have to be queued around the right service center.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by AD1166 »

As been said many times on this Forum…very sad. Diamond and/or Garmin seem to (do) not care at all about the plight of us Legacy Owners. And it doesn’t appear they ever will.

And also as has been mentioned before…you wish some enterprising person/company would obtain the STCs for these aircraft and get with the aftermarket on some solutions…you’d think they’d be willing to shed the liability (and our constant groveling), and at worst make a killing selling parts and avionics.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by ememic99 »

AD1166 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:58 pm you wish some enterprising person/company would obtain the STCs for these aircraft and get with the aftermarket on some solutions…
The problem is that developing such STCs would be huge investment with unpredictable outcome, especially without cooperation with DAI. When John Crosby developed STC for CD-155 for DA42 he invested considerable amount of money (I can’t disclose the number but it was a lot) and he did all development and testing by himself: purchasing engines, developing radiators, cowlings, test flights, result analysis and certification. I hope he recovered the investment through STC fees.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by blsewardjr »

I spoke with Garmin rep at SunNFun about the GFC500 autopilot for traditional gauge DA40's. Good news/bad news. He says it's on the list (good) but at the bottom of the list (bad). The reason he gave is that because of DA40's composite construction they would have to additional "environmental" flight testing regarding lightning protection. I reminded him they were able to do the Cirrus (good) but he noted that that Cirrus had more potential airframes, strong factory support and more interested pilots (bad). He said Garmin was aware of the number of DA40 airframes that would benefit from the autopilot and that if the DA40 were not composite it probably would be on the list now.

Related to this, I spoke to the Dyon Certified reps about their PFD. Dynon has no plans to add it to the AML list, again because of the certification issues raised by the composite airframe.

In other DA40 traditional gauge news, for those rare airframes like mine that have the GDL88 ADSB, the Avidyne rep told me that the IFD software has been upgraded to permit the navigators to supply the GPS position for the GDL88 ADSB (and display traffic/weather.) This might be a game changer for me since before I would have had to replace my GDL88 with something like a GTX345 in order to use the IFD series.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by ememic99 »

We went through all these talks few years ago with Garmin, Dynon and Honeywell (Anthem Flight Deck). Nothing can happen and won’t happen without Diamond. BTW I’ll be polite and won’t comment composite structure related to autopilot as an issue in Garmin case, having in mind GFC700 across DAI fleet.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by blsewardjr »

The GFC700 proves it's possible to certify a Garmin autopilot in a DA40, but otherwise I don't think its relevant from a regulatory standpoint. While the GFC500 builds on the GFC700, it's not the same autopilot. I obviously was not privy to the talks with Diamond, but in general I'm not sure how much the manufacturer has to be involved. GFC500 autopilots have been certified for Grumman Tigers and various Mooney's, both of whose manufacturers are basically only parts suppliers these days. Composite airframes may be different, of course.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by ememic99 »

blsewardjr wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:45 pm GFC500 autopilots have been certified for Grumman Tigers and various Mooney's, both of whose manufacturers are basically only parts suppliers these days. Composite airframes may be different, of course.
You’re correct as long as non-G1000 avionics is in case.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by Rich »

The composite argument is super-weak. There are already all manner of avionics being installed in the DA40 by the factory and the third-party aftermarket.

But the limited market opportunity is legitimate. Basically the DA40 market consists of those built prior to 2004 that don't already have a working autopilot and the current owner wants one. There are probably a few that have the KAP140 and find it lacking and are willing to ante up significant bucks to replace it. For me, it'd only be warranted as a hedge against future obsolescence of the original A/P. The additional features of the GFC500 aren't all that enticing to me. And there appear to be loss of certain functions. Here's an interesting note in the GFC500 installation manual: The pitch trim servo is optional and may not be available on all airframes. This is a big deal, as disconnecting an autopilot that does not also manage pitch trim in its operation can induce unwanted excitement. I also don't see provision for CWS on the stick (or at all) nor a AP/disconnect for the copilot.

Installation difficulty of any new autopilot is likely to cost far more than you think at first blush. This is especially true where there is no A/P. It's unknown to me if the original mounting pads for the servos are already in place (may or may not be sitting there waiting). If not these would need to be designed, fabricated, and installed. Most assuredly all the Diamond-supplied servo-control hardware is not. And then there is likely extensive additional wiring to be put in place, even up through the control sticks.

Even for those with an existing KAP140 and assuming the existing wiring and servo mounts could be reused there will be an interesting time connecting the new servos to the control system. This is especially true of the pitch trim servo. Also the GFC500 basically assumes a G5 (or G500, etc.) will be the interface to it. I know the Aspen doesn't interface with it and certainly the KI 525 originally installed won't cut it. Some functionality requires other Garmin stuff (GI275, GTN) and it's unclear what the effect is of having installed Avidyne navigators. And no mention of G1000, hence the pre-2004 constraint mentioned above.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by blsewardjr »

Apparently, satisfying the FAA with regard to whether the lightning protection used in composite aircraft (vice aluminum) is satisfactory is a non-trivial matter from a STC regulatory standpoint. This is particularly the case with regard to critical avionics that indicate flight attitude (PFDs) or directly control the aircraft (autopilots). For example, despite the fact that some owners have installed it, the Garmin G5 AML still limits it to NON-lightning protected VFR DA40s. The Dynon PFD is also not certified for the DA40 for the same reason.

I am not convinced that installing the GFC500 would be particularly difficult. There are now hundreds of these autopilots installed in a wide variety of aircraft. The servos in the DA40 are readily accessible. Therefore, what makes a DA40 install uniquely harder than say a Grumman Tiger install?

For me, in addition to less maintenance, I'd like to have the GFC500 IAS climb mode (safer) and the direct tracking of the RNAV approach path vice tracking the course deviation (especially in crosswinds).

Finally, the sense I got from talking to the Garmin rep was that the DA40 steam gauge market is not limited per se. For example, Garmin is in the process of certifying other small markets such as the Cessna 177 and 177A (C177B and C177RG are already approved). The DA40 steam gauge market is limited, however, in so far as not being large enough to bear the additional flight test costs of certifying the GFC500 without a significant price increase. Apparently, Garmin believes that this is not true for Cirrus. Of course, Cirrus has the advantage of having way more eligible aircraft -- the best-selling GA aircraft (SR20/22) and, unlike Diamond, hundreds of aircraft with the Avidyne system produced from 2003-07.
Bernie Seward, IR, AGI
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