New MSB about to be issued

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Boatguy
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Re: Austro Engine MSB

Post by Boatguy »

Mwarmer wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:49 pm In the aviation world it is completely different. Austro engines has produced junk. We paid for this product 100%. Now that something needs to be replaced (read a new engine) we have to pay for an engine that meets the specified requirements (as prescribed before) again, we can even pay for the installation again.

In other words, Austro or Diamond only make something and we get to pay ALL expenses twice.

Please explain.
That is not quite what the MSB says. I think owners fall into three broad sets:

1) Engines which must be monitored, and if they exceed the AL threshold, must be replaced.

2) Engines which must be replaced at 900 or 1000hrs.

The Group 4 engines which must be replaced at 1000hrs makes no sense. Why spend all the money on a the major work at 900hrs, just to discard that engine 100hrs later? I suspect those engines will all be replaced at 900hrs.

3) Engines which must be replaced immediately.

In all cases, Diamond/Austro is providing the replacement parts and/or engine core (owner's choice) and a pro-rata warranty for the full normal 1800hr TBR of the engine. That said, pro-rata implies some potential cash flow issues. I don't have this issue so I don't know exactly how that is being handled, perhaps someone who is affected will report on how the cash flow is being addressed.

In any case, your assertion that "we get to pay ALL expenses twice" is flawed.

WRT to a comparison with the auto industry, while auto manufacturers will most often provide a "loaner" vehicle, the aircraft/engine manufacturers draw the line at parts and labor. No loaner, no compensation for loss of use. So in that regard you are quite correct that aircraft manufacturers don't attempt to make their customers "whole". As an owner, there is both a cash flow element with the time AOG (interest, hangar, insurance, etc.), loss of revenue for owner's who's plane are generating revenue, loss of use for those who's aircraft are used in public service (S&R, military / environmental reconnaissance, etc.) and potential loss of pilot currency for private owners necessitating additional owner borne expense to restore currency.

It is entirely fair to say that the aircraft/engine manufacturers do not provide the same level of care to their customers as the auto industry, or many consumer products. And I'm pretty sure no airplane salesman has ever mentioned that to a first time airplane buyer. Caveat Emptor is an understatement.

On the other hand, I suspect that if we were to receive the same level of care that we receive from consumer products, we'd probably be paying even higher prices for a new airplane (and thus used airplane). So perhaps it's "pay me now or pay me later".
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by Soareyes »

"The Group 4 engines which must be replaced at 1000hrs makes no sense. Why spend all the money on a the major work at 900hrs, just to discard that engine 100hrs later? I suspect those engines will all be replaced at 900hrs."

The calculus could be complex. Assuming pro-rata means that the sooner you get the new engine the less you have to pay; get a new engine at 900 hours, half TBR, you pay half the cost, a new engine at 450 hours you pay one fourth the cost. Low time planes will have the option of getting new pistons (when available) for hundreds or new engine blocks for thousands. Does getting new pistons or a new engine block reset the TBR to a new 1,800 hours from time of replacement?

My 250 hour engines are Group 4 and the oil passed with low aluminum levels. Let's assume new piston kits are available in March, 2023 as they said in the original group call. I then could:

1. Get new pistons ASAP. Most invasive option engine wise. Don't really want to be the first one the shop has done. TBR returns to the original time(?)
2. Get new engine blocks. More expensive than pistons but low hours so Diamond pays most of it. Resets TBR to a new 1,800 hours later(?)
2. Do nothing. Continue monitoring the oil every 100 hours. Do I feel lucky?
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by MackAttack »

I think that's right for piston engine manufacturers and aircraft manufacturers; but turbine engine manufacturers typically provide loaner engines for aircraft under an engine program or warranty as part of the service (both jets and turboprops, although fewer turboprops are under engine programs). That's one of the great advantages of the engine programs - no cost loaners. Of course you pay for that service by the hour ... it's not free (except during the turbine engine warranty period).

I don't know if anyone on here has purchased the Piston Power product but I wonder if it covers a loaner engine? That begs the question of whether there would be any Austro loaners available, but a small number of engines could conceivably service a good percentage of the fleet while the work is being done.

But in fairness, there's typically nothing like that in the piston engine world so Diamond is not an outlier there.

Oddly enough, I still don't have clarity about the engines in my 62 scheduled for a mid-December ferry from Austria. Apparently engines are the last thing to go on the airframe and no engine serials assigned yet. Stay tuned ...

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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by hifiaudio2 »

Soareyes wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:18 pm "The Group 4 engines which must be replaced at 1000hrs makes no sense. Why spend all the money on a the major work at 900hrs, just to discard that engine 100hrs later? I suspect those engines will all be replaced at 900hrs."

The calculus could be complex. Assuming pro-rata means that the sooner you get the new engine the less you have to pay; get a new engine at 900 hours, half TBR, you pay half the cost, a new engine at 450 hours you pay one fourth the cost. Low time planes will have the option of getting new pistons (when available) for hundreds or new engine blocks for thousands. Does getting new pistons or a new engine block reset the TBR to a new 1,800 hours from time of replacement?

My 250 hour engines are Group 4 and the oil passed with low aluminum levels. Let's assume new piston kits are available in March, 2023 as they said in the original group call. I then could:

1. Get new pistons ASAP. Most invasive option engine wise. Don't really want to be the first one the shop has done. TBR returns to the original time(?)
2. Get new engine blocks. More expensive than pistons but low hours so Diamond pays most of it. Resets TBR to a new 1,800 hours later(?)
2. Do nothing. Continue monitoring the oil every 100 hours. Do I feel lucky?
I am group 3, so I haven't really looked at the rules around group 4.. you are saying that group 4 owners have to pay something out of pocket for engine cores? Group 3 does not.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by Boatguy »

hifiaudio2 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:54 am
Soareyes wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:18 pm "The Group 4 engines which must be replaced at 1000hrs makes no sense. Why spend all the money on a the major work at 900hrs, just to discard that engine 100hrs later? I suspect those engines will all be replaced at 900hrs."

The calculus could be complex. Assuming pro-rata means that the sooner you get the new engine the less you have to pay; get a new engine at 900 hours, half TBR, you pay half the cost, a new engine at 450 hours you pay one fourth the cost. Low time planes will have the option of getting new pistons (when available) for hundreds or new engine blocks for thousands. Does getting new pistons or a new engine block reset the TBR to a new 1,800 hours from time of replacement?

My 250 hour engines are Group 4 and the oil passed with low aluminum levels. Let's assume new piston kits are available in March, 2023 as they said in the original group call. I then could:

1. Get new pistons ASAP. Most invasive option engine wise. Don't really want to be the first one the shop has done. TBR returns to the original time(?)
2. Get new engine blocks. More expensive than pistons but low hours so Diamond pays most of it. Resets TBR to a new 1,800 hours later(?)
2. Do nothing. Continue monitoring the oil every 100 hours. Do I feel lucky?
I am group 3, so I haven't really looked at the rules around group 4.. you are saying that group 4 owners have to pay something out of pocket for engine cores? Group 3 does not.
They will cover the "pro rata" cost. The baseline is that TBR is 1800hrs. I don't think they are going to give an 1800hr engine to an owner who is halfway (i.e., 900hrs) to having to buy a new engine. That would be generous, but I don't think they are doing that. I'm not certain, and you should definitely talk directly with Diamond. But my understanding is that at 900hrs, you'll need to pay half the cost of a new engine (≈ $25K) to get an engine which will then have an 1800hr TBR. It's essentially accelerating the owner's purchase of a new engine, and that is the cash flow rub which I think they are discussing on a case by case basis.

I think it would benefit everyone if you asked these questions directly of Diamond and shared what you are told so we can end the speculation and know how they are actually addressing this situation.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by hifiaudio2 »

Ah ok. I had thought the pro rata talk was only around a full new engine, and not just a core.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by Boatguy »

hifiaudio2 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:13 am Ah ok. I had thought the pro rata talk was only around a full new engine, and not just a core.
That's an interesting question. I don't know if a new engine includes all the external stuff (alternator, gearbox, turbocharger, intercooler, radiator, etc. etc.) or not. So I'm not quite sure what the "apples to apples" comparison is between a new engine and a core.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by RDGUSLLC »

What a mess. I have a brand new DA42 setting in Canada, should be ready for delivery any day. I have not heard much. I don't know what to do? Who wants to live on pins and needles every 50 hours wondering if the aluminum count is too high and the plane would be be grounded? The reason you buy a new plane is so you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff. I have a perfectly good DA42 now with low time Continental engines that work just fine. Having a fleet wide issue involving a critical engine component leaves the company open to all sorts of liabilities. God forbid a catastrophic failure occurs causing injury or a fatality. This is the kind of thing class action law suits can spawn from. Only the lawyers will prosper in that case. Questions order of importance: #1. Is the plane safe. #2. Anxiety around every oil analysis (grounding threat) #3. Increased frequency of oil changes (annoyance). #4. Is the oil analysis accurate (I have had outliers before that meant nothing). #5. If there is a problem how long before Diamond can restore the plane? #6. Is the shop capable of making the required repairs #7. Resale considerations (given the outrageous cost any one endured recently buying a new or used plane, how will one with questionable engines hold its value?) #8. Anxiety around Diamond's viability and ability to withstand the financial hit. As someone suggested, we sure paid one heck of a lot of money to have to deal a problem like this.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by photoSteveZ »

I was under the impression from the owners presentation, and from my conversations with Premier's David Seastead, that whether you replace the core or the pistons, your engine reverts to the original 1800hr TBR period: i.e., the 1800hr clock is NOT reset to zero. For now, Austro is shipping replacement cores to service centers to get AOG planes back in the air, at Austro's cost. As I understand it, after new pistons become available (expected in Q1 2023), everyone whose engines fall under the MSB gets new pistons and replacement cores will no longer be shipped.

Group 3 engines (DA40s) cannot remain in service beyond 900 hours without the specified rework being performed, and Group 4 engines (twins) cannot go beyond 1000 hours. But once piston sets are available and so long as the aluminum numbers stay below the 8ppm threshold, you as the owner have the choice of when to have the work performed, up to the 900/1000 hr limit, with Austro footing the bill. I'm not clear about what happens for Group3/4 engines that had already exceeded 900/1000 hrs at the time the MSB was issued.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued

Post by Soareyes »

What a mess. I have a brand new DA42 setting in Canada, should be ready for delivery any day. I have not heard much. I don't know what to do? Who wants to live on pins and needles every 50 hours wondering if the aluminum count is too high and the plane would be be grounded?

If it is sitting in Canada now it probably does not have the newly re-honed cylinders, but ask. I would ask for the serial numbers of the engines to confirm which category they are in and for the results of new oil analyses done since flying across the Atlantic. Worst case is Category 4 in which you have to sample the oil every 100 hours, no different from the usual oil change interval. Risk a surprise aluminum spike. Plan to get new pistons (or engines) before 1,000 hours. Every 50 hours is for single engine planes.

God forbid a catastrophic failure occurs causing injury or a fatality.

In their initial communication Diamond reported six failures.

#4. Is the oil analysis accurate (I have had outliers before that meant nothing).

Good point. A dealer in North Carolina reported a piston failure 15 hours after having an acceptable oil result.

Resale considerations (given the outrageous cost any one endured recently buying a new or used plane, how will one with questionable engines hold its value?) I have a perfectly good DA42 now with low time Continental engines that work just fine.

Your sales contract probably won't let you back out of this sale but I have heard of dealers willing to accept a new plane the original buyer no longer wants on the condition that they are able to sell it as new to someone else before it is transferred to your name. You get back whatever they sell it for. With the market the way it is now it may sell for a fair amount to someone willing take a chance.
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