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New here, insurance question

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:17 pm
by LimaZulu
Hi folks,

I'm new to the Diamond community, and currently awaiting delivery of a DA40NG (ordered in December 2021, delivery slipped to end of Q4 2022).

I'm currently shopping around for insurance quotes (hull + liability), and so far they left me in sadness. The ranges I'm seeing (in Canada) are 14-25 aviation units... per year. I didn't expect to be cheap, but is this the reality of things?

I have a PPL, multi and night rating with a ~170hrs total. I'm fully checked out in a SR22T on my buddy's plane, as I was told this will have a positive impact on the insurance rate given that its a high performance aircraft, and a DA40 is a "downgrade". I have 0hrs on type, and the insurance conditions stipulate that I should have at least 10hrs dual on type before going solo to be insured, which seems pretty reasonable.

Would love to hear some thoughts, and what others pay with more than 0 hours on type.

Thanks!

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:33 pm
by vincent99
I'm shopping for a lightly-used (don't want to wait out that year…) DA40NG and have started getting quotes. In the US (Arizona) instead of Canada so dunno what's typical there, but that looks super high from here even if your numbers are in $CAD.

Based on $500k hull value, recently finished PPL with ~100hrs total time including 10 in-type (they only wanted 3):

- $1m combined, $100k per pax: $6,600/yr
- $1m combined, $200k per pax: $6,800/yr
- $1m combined, smooth: $7,100/yr

With $5k medical and open pilot for 300 PIC time + 5 in-type.

(all in USD)

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:13 am
by mhoran
Our last renewal was $3558 for hull value of 265k and 1mm smooth liability. There are two pilots on the policy, both instrument rated, many hundred hours in type at this point. The rate has steadily crept upward over the year despite adding ratings and flight time.

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:49 am
by dmloftus
Those numbers seem extremely high compared to my 2008XLS. For $1M liability, $250K hull (probably need to increase to >$300K with recent appreciation), I'm paying $1582 per year through Travers. I'm PPL SEL w/Instrument rating, I have almost 700 hours TT and 300 in type, with complex and high performance. I'm also a solo owner.
Seems you should definitely go log some dual with a flight school that flies Diamonds - a very good idea even ignoring the insurance expense. While our DA40's are fantastic aircraft and relatively easy to fly, you will undoubtedly be a much safer pilot getting some training from experts. Especially with the heavier-nosed DA40NG. And hopefully save a few $$$ in the process.

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:26 pm
by LimaZulu
vincent99 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:33 pm I'm shopping for a lightly-used (don't want to wait out that year…) DA40NG and have started getting quotes. In the US (Arizona) instead of Canada so dunno what's typical there, but that looks super high from here even if your numbers are in $CAD.

Based on $500k hull value, recently finished PPL with ~100hrs total time including 10 in-type (they only wanted 3):

- $1m combined, $100k per pax: $6,600/yr
- $1m combined, $200k per pax: $6,800/yr
- $1m combined, smooth: $7,100/yr

With $5k medical and open pilot for 300 PIC time + 5 in-type.

(all in USD)
Yes, my prices were in CAD. That's actually not that far off from the cheapest quote I got, which was 9.5k USD ($590k hull), however its a no go for me due to 1M liability, as the financing folks wanted 2M minimum and this vendor refused to go higher than 1M for whatever reason. Next best thing is ~12K USD.

All of these assume a 25k CAD deductible, by the way.

TIL - "smooth liability".

dmloftus wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:49 am Those numbers seem extremely high compared to my 2008XLS. For $1M liability, $250K hull (probably need to increase to >$300K with recent appreciation), I'm paying $1582 per year through Travers. I'm PPL SEL w/Instrument rating, I have almost 700 hours TT and 300 in type, with complex and high performance. I'm also a solo owner.
Seems you should definitely go log some dual with a flight school that flies Diamonds - a very good idea even ignoring the insurance expense. While our DA40's are fantastic aircraft and relatively easy to fly, you will undoubtedly be a much safer pilot getting some training from experts. Especially with the heavier-nosed DA40NG. And hopefully save a few $$$ in the process.
I'm planning to do an IFR rating after I log at least 50hrs on type, but it will take years for me to reach your hrs. The only place near Toronto (as far as I know) that rents DA40s is Collingwood, which is a 2hr drive and I would have to enroll into their school to do a rating of some kind to get access to the planes. I'm most likely gonna log more than the 10hrs dual time with a local instructor before going solo anyway. Maybe pickup a VFR over the top rating while I'm at it. But good to see such low $ numbers are possible.

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:45 pm
by Boatguy
Have you thought of finding a new lender? I'm mystified why they care about liability as they have none. The lender should only need to know that you're covered to the amount of the loan.

For my 2019 DA40NG, I pay $3,800 USD for $475K of hull coverage, $0 deductible and $1M of liability.

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:20 pm
by CFIDave
A very rough rule of thumb is to start with the plane's hull value. Then a 1% per year premium is about the least expensive coverage for experienced pilots, ranging up to 3% annual premium for those with very low hours and/or no time in type.

So for a new $600K (US$) DA40NG being flown by a pilot with no time in type and low total hours, expect the first year's premium to be as high as 3%, or about $18K (US$).

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:53 pm
by dmloftus
CFIDave wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:20 pm A very rough rule of thumb is to start with the plane's hull value. Then a 1% per year premium is about the least expensive coverage for experienced pilots, ranging up to 3% annual premium for those with very low hours and/or no time in type.
Wow, I guess I’m very fortunate at 0.6%

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:28 pm
by Rich
I used to be at about .8% of insured hull value until a couple of years back. It's now at 1% and has stayed steady since. This happened when I turned >72 years old. This was also at the time A/C insurance rates were generally increasing across the board.

IIRC when we picked up the plane, new at the factor, hull insurance for us was about 1% of insured value. This was in 2002 and neither of us (I had a partner) had any DA40 time. In fact, almost nobody not working for Diamond had any DA40 time. :D No instructors, DPE's, nobody.

Re: New here, insurance question

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:11 am
by Mjwatlanta
I don’t have policy with me so this from memory. I’m low time since restarting flying this year. No credit for my 40 years ago time. All recent time in da40. 580k hull value, 1m liability for $11,000 or so. I’m promised instrument rating will reduce it substantially. Agent is David Asman. His father Sandy was on this forum before his da40 was crushed in a tornado. David.asman@indemnifly.com.